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Neurolinguistic programming (NLP)

Discussion in 'Other treatments' started by Nancy Blake, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Agree 100%, and as I said in post #11 ...
    Edit: And on reflection I was wrong to brand my own endeavours as pseudo-science, because I have never made any supposed scientific claims for them anyway.
     
    Lou B Lou, zzz and Invisible Woman like this.
  2. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This was the bit that I was responding to @Barry. I could have been a bit clearer :)

    I wouldn't judge a person for wanting to try stuff. I would just urge them to be as informed as possible before potentially putting themselves in harms way and spending what little cash they have.

    ETA:I also think it's that the lack of properly designed trials with high quality analysis means the main source of information about these treatments may be those who have a vested financial interest. So much of the information out there is positively skewed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  3. MErmaid

    MErmaid Guest

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    Yes, I agree. Thank you for speaking up :hug:
     
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  4. Valentijn

    Valentijn Guest

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    The citations in the wikipedia article relating to pseudoscience, scientific criticism, and lack of efficacy would be a good place to start:

    [9] Thyer, Bruce A.; Pignotti, Monica G. (2015-05-15). Science and Pseudoscience in Social Work Practice. Springer Publishing Company. pp. 56–57, 165–167. ISBN 978-0-8261-7769-8. "As NLP became more popular, some research was conducted and reviews of such research have concluded that there is no scientific basis for its theories about representational systems and eye movements."

    [10] Witkowski, Tomasz (1 January 2010). "Thirty-Five Years of Research on Neuro-Linguistic Programming. NLP Research Data Base. State of the Art or Pseudoscientific Decoration?". Polish Psychological Bulletin. 41 (2). doi:10.2478/v10059-010-0008-0.

    [11] Dowlen, Ashley (1 January 1996). "NLP – help or hype? Investigating the uses of neuro-linguistic programming in management learning". Career Development International. 1 (1): 27–34. doi:10.1108/13620439610111408.

    [12] Sharpley, Christopher F. (1 January 1987). "Research findings on neurolinguistic programming: Nonsupportive data or an untestable theory?". Journal of Counseling Psychology. 34 (1): 103–107. doi:10.1037/0022-0167.34.1.103.

    [13] von Bergen, C. W.; Gary, Barlow Soper; Rosenthal, T.; Wilkinson, Lamar V. (1997). "Selected alternative training techniques in HRD". Human Resource Development Quarterly. 8 (4): 281–294. doi:10.1002/hrdq.3920080403.

    [14] Druckman, Daniel (1 November 2004). "Be All That You Can Be: Enhancing Human Performance". Journal of Applied Social Psychology. 34 (11): 2234–2260. doi:10.1111/j.1559-1816.2004.tb01975.x.

    [88] Devilly, Grant J. (1 June 2005). "Power Therapies and possible threats to the science of psychology and psychiatry". Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry. 39 (6): 437–445. doi:10.1111/j.1440-1614.2005.01601.x. PMID 15943644.

    [89] Gelso, C J; Fassinger, R E (1 January 1990). "Counseling Psychology: Theory and Research on Interventions". Annual Review of Psychology. 41 (1): 355–386. doi:10.1146/annurev.ps.41.020190.002035. PMID 2407174. "Neurolinguistic programming, focused on such variables as sensory mode preference and use (e.g., Graunke & Roberts 1985) and predicate matching (e.g., Elich et al 1985; Mercier & Johnson 1984) had shown promise at the beginning of the decade, but after several years of conflicting and confusing results, Sharpley (1984, 1987) reviewed the research and concluded that there was little support for the assumptions of NLP. This research is now clearly on the decline, underscoring the value of thoughtful reviews and the publication of nonsupportive results in guiding empirical efforts."

    [90] See, for instance, the following:
    • Sharpley, Christopher .F. (1984). "Predicate matching in NLP: a review of research on the preferred representational system". Journal of Counseling Psychology. 31: 238–48. doi:10.1037/0022-0167.31.2.238.
    • Sharpley, Christopher F. (1 January 1987). "Research findings on neurolinguistic programming: Nonsupportive data or an untestable theory?". Journal of Counseling Psychology. 34 (1): 103–107. doi:10.1037/0022-0167.34.1.103.
    • Heap. M., (1988) Neurolinguistic programming: An interim verdict Archived 15 June 2007 at the Wayback Machine.. In M. Heap (Ed.) Hypnosis: Current Clinical, Experimental and Forensic Practices. London: Croom Helm, pp. 268–280.
    • Druckman, Daniel; Swets, John A. (1988). "Enhancing human performance: Issues, theories, and techniques". Human Resource Development Quarterly. Washington, DC: National Academy Press. 1 (2): 202–206. doi:10.1002/hrdq.3920010212.
    • Druckman, Daniel (1 November 2004). "Be All That You Can Be: Enhancing Human Performance". Journal of Applied Social Psychology. 34 (11): 2234–2260. doi:10.1111/j.1559-1816.2004.tb01975.x.
    • von Bergen, C. W.; Gary, Barlow Soper; Rosenthal, T.; Wilkinson, Lamar V. (1997). "Selected alternative training techniques in HRD". Human Resource Development Quarterly. 8 (4): 281–294. doi:10.1002/hrdq.3920080403.
    • Witkowski, Tomasz (1 January 2010). "Thirty-Five Years of Research on Neuro-Linguistic Programming. NLP Research Data Base. State of the Art or Pseudoscientific Decoration?". Polish Psychological Bulletin. 41 (2). doi:10.2478/v10059-010-0008-0.

    [91] See the following:
    • Einspruch, Eric L.; Forman, Bruce D. (1 January 1985). "Observations concerning research literature on neuro-linguistic programming". Journal of Counseling Psychology. 32 (4): 589–596. doi:10.1037/0022-0167.32.4.589.
    • Murray, Laura L. (30 May 2013). "Limited evidence that neurolinguistic programming improves health-related outcomes". Evidence-Based Mental Health. BMJ Publishing Group. 16: 79. doi:10.1136/eb-2013-101355.
    • Sturt, Jackie; Ali, Saima; Robertson, Wendy; Metcalfe, David; Grove, Amy; Bourne, Claire; Bridle, Chris (November 2012). "Neurolinguistic programming: a systematic review of the effects on health outcomes". British Journal of General Practice. Royal College of General Practitioners. 62 (604): e757–64. doi:10.3399/bjgp12X658287. 23211179.
    • "Neuro-Linguistic Programming and Research". Retrieved 22 February 2010.
    • Tosey, P.; Mathison, J. (2010). "Exploring inner landscapes through psychophenomenology: The contribution of neuro-linguistic programming to innovations in researching first person experience". Qualitative Research in Organizations and Management: an International Journal. 5: 63–82. doi:10.1108/17465641011042035.

    [92] See the following:
    • Witkowski, Tomasz (1 January 2010). "Thirty-Five Years of Research on Neuro-Linguistic Programming. NLP Research Data Base. State of the Art or Pseudoscientific Decoration?". Polish Psychological Bulletin. 41 (2). doi:10.2478/v10059-010-0008-0.
    • Carroll RT (2009-02-23). "neuro-linguistic programming (NLP)". The Skeptic's Dictionary. Retrieved 2009-06-25.
    • Beyerstein, B.L (1990). "Brainscams: Neuromythologies of the New Age". International Journal of Mental Health. 19 (3): 27–36 (27).
    • Corballis, Michael C. (2012). "Chapter 13 Educational double-think". In Della Sala, Sergio; Anderson, Mike. Neuroscience in Education:The good, the bad, and the ugly (1st ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 225–6. ISBN 978-0-19-960049-6. "The notion of hemisphericity is also incorporated into such cult activities as Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP).... In any event, NLP is a movement that is still going strong, but has little scientific credibility."
    • Singer, Margaret, and Lalich, Janja (1997). Crazy Therapies. Jossey-Bass.
    • (Eds.) Lilienfeld, S., Lynn, S., & Lohr, J. (2004). Science and Pseudo-science in Clinical Psychology. The Guilford Press.
    • Della Sala, Sergio (2007). "Introduction: The myth of 10% and other Tall Tales about the mind and brain". Tall Tales About the Mind and Brain: Separating Fact from Fiction (1st ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. xx. ISBN 978-0-19-856876-6.
    • William F. Williams, ed. (2000), Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience: From Alien Abductions to Zone Therapy, Fitzroy Dearborn Publishers, ISBN 978-1-57958-207-4 p. 235
    • Lum.C (2001). Scientific Thinking in Speech and Language Therapy. Psychology Press. p. 16. ISBN 0-8058-4029-X.
    • Lilienfeld, Scott O.; Lohr, Jeffrey M.; Morier, Dean (1 July 2001). "The Teaching of Courses in the Science and Pseudoscience of Psychology: Useful Resources". Teaching of Psychology. 28 (3): 182–191. doi:10.1207/S15328023TOP2803_03.
    • Dunn D, Halonen J, Smith R (2008). Teaching Critical Thinking in Psychology. Wiley-Blackwell. p. 12. ISBN 978-1-4051-7402-2.
    • Harris, Lauren Julius (1988). "Chapter 8 Right-Brain Training: Some Reflections on the Application of Research on Cerebral Hemispheric Specialization to Education". In Molfese, Dennis L.; Segalowitz, Sidney J. Brain Lateralization in Children: Developmental Implications (1st ed.). New York: Guilford Press. p. 214. ISBN 0-89862-719-2. "NLP began in 1975 and has quickly achieved cult status."
    For a description of the social influence tactics used by NLP and similar pseudoscientific therapies, see Devilly, Grant J. (1 June 2005). "Power Therapies and possible threats to the science of psychology and psychiatry". Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry. 39 (6): 437–445. doi:10.1111/j.1440-1614.2005.01601.x. PMID 15943644.

    [93] Roderique-Davies, G. (2009). "Neuro-linguistic programming: Cargo cult psychology?". Journal of Applied Research in Higher Education. 1 (2): 58–63. doi:10.1108/17581184200900014. [1]
    • See also Rowan, John (December 2008). "NLP is not based on constructivism". The Coaching Psychologist. The British Psychological Society. 4 (3). ISSN 1748-1104.

    [94] Norcross and colleagues (2006) found NLP to be given similar ratings as dolphin assisted therapy, equine therapy, psychosynthesis, scared straight programmes, and emotional freedom technique:
    • Norcross, John C.; Koocher, Gerald P.; Garofalo, Ariele (1 January 2006). "Discredited psychological treatments and tests: A Delphi poll". Professional Psychology: Research and Practice. 37 (5): 515–522. doi:10.1037/0735-7028.37.5.515.
    • Norcross and colleagues (2010) listed it as seventh out of their list of ten most discredited drug and alcohol interventions:
    • Norcross, John C.; Koocher, Gerald P.; Fala, Natalie C.; Wexler, Harry K. (1 September 2010). "What Does Not Work? Expert Consensus on Discredited Treatments in the Addictions". Journal of Addiction Medicine. 4 (3): 174–180. doi:10.1097/ADM.0b013e3181c5f9db. PMID 21769032.
    • Glasner-Edwards, Suzette; Rawson, Richard (1 October 2010). "Evidence-based practices in addiction treatment: Review and recommendations for public policy". Health Policy. 97 (2–3): 93–104. doi:10.1016/j.healthpol.2010.05.013. PMC 2951979 Freely accessible. PMID 20557970.

    [95] See the following:
    • Biedermann, Heinz-Joachim; Bradley, E. Jane (1 January 1985). "Bandler and Grinder's neurolinguistic programming: Its historical context and contribution". Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training. APA. 22 (1): 59–62. doi:10.1037/h0088527. ISSN 0033-3204. OCLC 1588338. Retrieved 24 May 2013.
    • Tye, Marcus J.C. (1994). "Neurolinguistic programming: Magic or myth?". Journal of Accelerative Learning & Teaching. 19 (3–4): 309–342. ISSN 0273-2459. 2003-01157-001.

    [96] See the following:
    • Biedermann, Heinz-Joachim; Bradley, E. Jane (1 January 1985). "Bandler and Grinder's neurolinguistic programming: Its historical context and contribution". Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training. APA. 22 (1): 59–62. doi:10.1037/h0088527. ISSN 0033-3204. OCLC 1588338. Retrieved 24 May 2013.
    • Levelt, Willem J.M (1996). "u voor neuro-linguistische programmering". Skepter (in Dutch). Skepsis. 9 (3).

    [97] See the following:
    • Witkowski, Tomasz (1 January 2010). "Thirty-Five Years of Research on Neuro-Linguistic Programming. NLP Research Data Base. State of the Art or Pseudoscientific Decoration?". Polish Psychological Bulletin. 41 (2). doi:10.2478/v10059-010-0008-0.
    • Corballis, M.C. (1999). "Are we in our right minds?". In S.D. Sala. Mind Myths: Exploring Popular Assumptions About the Mind and Brain (Repr. ed.). Chichester, UK: John Wiley & Sons. p. 41. ISBN 0-471-98303-9.
    • Drenth, Pieter J.D (2003). "Growing anti-intellectualism in Europe; a menace to science" (PDF). Studia Psychologica. 45: 5–13. Archived from the original (PDF) on 16 June 2011.
    • Beyerstein, B.L (1990). "Brainscams: Neuromythologies of the New Age". International Journal of Mental Health. 19 (3): 27–36 (27).
    For more information on the use of neuroscience terms to lend the appearance of credibility to arguments, see Weisberg, D. S.; Keil, F. C.; Goodstein, J.; Rawson, E.; Gray, J. R. (2008). "The Seductive Allure of Neuroscience Explanations". Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience. 20 (3): 470–7. doi:10.1162/jocn.2008.20040. PMC 2778755 Freely accessible. PMID 18004955.

    [98] See, for example, the following:
    • Lum.C (2001). Scientific Thinking in Speech and Language Therapy. Psychology Press. p. 16. ISBN 0-8058-4029-X.
    • Lilienfeld, Scott O.; Lohr, Jeffrey M.; Morier, Dean (1 July 2001). "The Teaching of Courses in the Science and Pseudoscience of Psychology: Useful Resources". Teaching of Psychology. 28 (3): 182–191. doi:10.1207/S15328023TOP2803_03.
    • Dunn D, Halonen J, Smith R (2008). Teaching Critical Thinking in Psychology. Wiley-Blackwell. p. 12. ISBN 978-1-4051-7402-2.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  5. TiredSam

    TiredSam Committee Member

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    I don't think that's a fair characterisation. All a bit ad hominem isn't it? When I'm not crying bullshit or being closed-minded and subjective and claiming I'm the opposite, I like to think I can be quite a reasonable chap. I am willing to consider it, and am waiting for someone to provide or reference some evidence to help me to do so. There may well be some good in NLP, but if there is I don't think it's anything original, and looks to me like Richard Bandler may have relabelled some old ideas, packaged them in with a steaming pile of horseshit, and made a lot of money.

    Are you saying that you personally can't talk about the good in NLP, but would I mind going off on a wild goose-chase investigating it all thoroughly? You do it, and come back with some evidence. At the moment all you've produced is veiled references to your personal life and name-calling. You can start by going through @Valentijn's reading list above if you're so open-minded.

    I investigated NLP in the 1990s when it was all the rage, when I was teaching English using the "Superlearning" method based on Lozanov, NLP and all that jazz. I did a course on it, a member of my family is a NLP therapist. I have investigated it as far as I can be bothered, and I'm not going through it all again at your behest, in the hope that I might be able to find and acknowledge something wonderful about it, just so I can finally meet your definition of open-minded and objective.
     
  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Dear @Barry,

    Maybe it is useful to make a distinction between science and evidence here. Good medicine needs to be based on reliable evidence. It does not in fact have to be based on science in the sense that most people think of a 'scientific theory'. Scientific theories are useful in helping us to understand how to put the evidence in perspective and deal with situations that do not fit easily with the format of the evidence base but they are not essential for practice.

    NLP theory may lead to some useful proposals for what to do. But if so we should have reliably tested evidence for those particular predictions. The problem with things like NLP is the claim that you can make other reliable predictions from the theory base itself. Since the theory base is in fact too vague to make well defined predictions it is unscientific and useless. In the sense that it was clearly made up without any testable justification it is bullshit. And it was obviously made up in order to make someone famous or rich and that is what others will use it for as long as it is around.

    As an example, one might have the theory that eating red berries is good for you. That is true of strawberries so you could say it makes some useful predictions. But it is not true of yew berries, which are poisonous. In scientific theory terms the proposal is really that 'redness of berries is a reliable indicator of being nutritious'. That theory is wrong. The evidence that strawberries are nutritious has been reliably established and one could raise that to the level of a scientific theory that 'redness and strawberry shape with seeds on the outside and a strawberry smell with a label on the box saying strawberries is a reliable indictor of being nutritious'. But most people would say that is not so much a scientific theory as just a specific fact.

    I know pretty much nothing about NLP other than that it was espoused by my old friend George Lewith, who by other criteria had clearly become a quack. As far as I can see NLP just means changing what people think by talking to them. If there is a background theory about how minds work it will be bullshit because we have no understanding of how minds actually work that can be reliably tested. We all accept that there are probably sensible and useful ways of changing the way people think by talking to them, but why not just call it that?

    Otherwise you give credence to the claim that there are 'properly trained therapists', as claimed by Simon Wessely or trudge Chalder. How do we know they are properly trained if we have no evidence for what they do being any use? If anything the mistake is to think that having a theory, or a science, is the mark of respectability in medicine. It is not. It is having reliable evidence for what works in what situation.
     
  7. TiredSam

    TiredSam Committee Member

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    typo or a new nickname?
     
  8. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    No one here is saying any individual's personal experience with NLP or any other therapy is nonsense. If you found a particular therapy helpful, or found your own ways to help yourself through a difficult time, or to understand and change yourself for the better, then I am pleased for you. No one is being attacked here for describing their own personal successes.

    However, we are a science based forum, and we value and promote evidence based science, which includes examining any treatment claim, and, if someone tells us it is successful for them, either as a therapist or as a patient, then we are right to look at the evidence beyond those anecdotal claims. Not only out of curiosity, but for the sake of giving an accurate picture of the therapy under discussion for others who may read those success stories.

    It is no different to the way we should examine the evidence if someone claimed personal success, or success in treating others, with Rituximab or a nutriceutical. We can celebrate individuals' good fortune in improved health, while at the same time pointing out the lack of evidence that these treatments should be recommended for others.

    With psychological therapies, we have the added confusion caused by aspects of those therapies which when we read about them, 'make sense' or 'sound like something I did myself that helped' or are 'done by sincere people who want to help'. And sometimes it can be the particular qualities of the therapist - empathy, listening etc. that can help more than the particular techniques they offer.

    We, of all people, should be extra cautious about such reactions. Look where that has landed us with the BPS approach to ME/CFS.

    In the case of NLP, it seems that there is ample scientific evidence that it doesn't work, and no clinical trial evidence that it is effective.

    Edit: Cross posted with @Jonathan Edwards - I am talking about science in terms of clinical trial evidence here. I also agree with him that there doesn't seem to be any credible scientific theory underpinning NLP.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  9. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I remember being amazed at how many of the drug descriptions in the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) contain the phrase "The exact mechanism of action is unknown." Trials had proved that the drugs were effective, but why they were effective was often unclear.
     
  10. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I do agree with all you say here, and the fact people think otherwise shows how dismally my communication skills have failed me here; I actually agree with most of what people have said in this thread. And @TiredSam you're right, if I'm not prepared to provide supporting information or evidence of my own experiences, then I should hardly expect others to take it on board. But I think I'm realising my efforts were a far cry from full blown NLP, and much more likely just a small part of it. It's true inevitably, my endeavours which worked for me will have been nothing original; it's hard to not blow your own experiences out of proportion sometimes.

    So thank you all for lively contributions :).
     
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  11. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Robert Evans on Behind the Bastards. Part One: How the Dilbert Guy Lost His Mind. From 54:30 —

     
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  12. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Merged thread

    What is NLP and what is it used for?
    Medical News Today
    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320368

    (although it says at the bottom of the article "Last medically reviewed on December 20, 2017" at the top it says
    Medically reviewed by Timothy J. Legg, PhD, PsyD — By Aaron Kandola — Updated on February 8, 2023)

    "NLP has not been subject to the same standard of scientific rigor as more established therapies, such as cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT." hmm.

    (posting as I have noticed that a lot of 'acredited BABCP' therapists offer NLP.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2023
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  13. JemPD

    JemPD Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    :D lol i highlighted the same sentence to quote

    scientific rigour :laugh::rofl:
     
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  14. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yeah, the absolute saddest thing is that, yes, NLP has been subject to the same standard of scientific rigor as CBT. That's the saddest part about it. Far less of it, of course, in terms of resources spent, but the standard is the same. Because it's a much smaller industry, but it is very much a subset of that same industry.

    This is the reason why most of our CBT-pushing BPS overlords think that the LP is just as fine and scientifically rigorous as their stuff. Because it literally is, based on the same standard of scientific rigor. Because zero is a standard. It's a bad standard, the worst, but it sure is a standard.
     
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