1. Sign our petition calling on Cochrane to withdraw their review of Exercise Therapy for CFS here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, the 'News in Brief' for the week beginning 18th March 2024 is here.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Welcome! To read the Core Purpose and Values of our forum, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

NICE and Cochrane sign collaborative agreement to deliver ‘living’ guideline recommendations

Discussion in 'Other health news and research' started by Sly Saint, Sep 1, 2021.

  1. InitialConditions

    InitialConditions Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,580
    Location:
    North-West England
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2022
    Barry, FMMM1, Missense and 3 others like this.
  2. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,273
    Location:
    London, UK
    Roger Kirby in the chair next week I see.
    He cured my cancer, so good chap!
     
    SNT Gatchaman, Ash, Barry and 11 others like this.
  3. InitialConditions

    InitialConditions Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,580
    Location:
    North-West England
    I assumed SW would be hosting, but yes it is Roger Kirby.

    Simon must have other engagements!
     
    FMMM1, Missense, Ariel and 2 others like this.
  4. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,273
    Location:
    London, UK
    Roger is the President now.
     
    Missense, Ariel, Kitty and 1 other person like this.
  5. InitialConditions

    InitialConditions Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,580
    Location:
    North-West England
    But I think SW has been hosting this recent round of talks, and I'm wondering if we are to read anything into his absence next week.
     
  6. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,595
    Is there an opportunity to ask questions?
     
  7. InitialConditions

    InitialConditions Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,580
    Location:
    North-West England
    Yes, there's a Q+A box on the Zoom talk. Whether they look at it is probably up to the host. Last night SW didn't take questions from the audience.
     
  8. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,595
    @CRG
    I was a little surprised to learn that Gillian Leng, recently retired Chief Executive of NICE, "[had been]Editor for the Cochrane Collaboration for many years, and is now chair of the Guidelines International Network"*.
    NICE of course recently signed a collaborative agreement with Cochrane.

    I'm guessing that these two facts don't necessarily add up to anything inappropriate but I thought I'd seek your views. Thanks.


    *"In Conversation Live with Professor Gillian Leng CBE
    Back to top

    About this event
    • Date and timeWed 26 Jan 2022 from 7:00pm to 8:05pm
    • LocationOnline
    Register here to join our In Conversation Live with Professor Gillian Leng CBE

    Professor Gillian Leng, Chief Executive of NICE, will be joining Professor Roger Kirby, RSM President, for a conversation about --- her strategic approach to improving NICE guidelines and evaluating medicines---

    Gillian trained in medicine at Leeds and as a Junior Doctor she was struck by variations in clinical practice, this developed into a passion for using evidence to improve care. She then moved to work on clinical trials and epidemiological research in Edinburgh, and later, was a Public Health Consultant in London. She was an Editor for the Cochrane Collaboration for many years, and is now chair of the Guidelines International Network."
     
  9. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,273
    Location:
    London, UK
    I listened to some of the interview with Leng. Kirby tried to get her to comment on controversial things but she specifically started by saying she was not going to mention ME!

    So presumably ME has been uppermost in her mind as controversial. Interesting that she referred to it just as ME, not even ME/CFS.
     
  10. InitialConditions

    InitialConditions Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,580
    Location:
    North-West England
    Ahh. I completely forgot about this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2022
    Peter Trewhitt, Missense and FMMM1 like this.
  11. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    12,299
    Location:
    Canada
    With great power comes no comment.

    It's so nice to be beneath comment. Really emphasizes that our lives are in such good hands.
     
  12. Suffolkres

    Suffolkres Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,522
    I registered and provided a question which provoked her to speak of ME matters..... Charles Shepherd got one in too!
     
    ukxmrv, Daisymay, Starlight and 10 others like this.
  13. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    821
    Location:
    Oxford UK
    I listened too. Was interested she specifically said she was not going to talk about the ME guideline! I missed the answer she gave to Charles Shepherd as I was composing my own question (about the lack of transparency in Cochrane compared to NICE) which was not answered. She was forced to talk (briefly) about the pause in the end.

    She replied to my email this morning. (link to my email https://healthycontrol.org/2021/12/31/letter-to-gill-leng-nice/)

    I wonder if she will be the new CEO of Cochrane...it crossed my mind a few months ago?! Could happen...

    Dear Caroline

    Thank you for your email regarding the Cochrane/NICE collaboration. I understand that you raise 2 key issues for NICE which I will address in turn.

    Firstly, your concern about the ongoing Cochrane review into exercise therapy. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on decisions taken by Cochrane about the continuation of their review. From a broader perspective on NICE’s collaboration with Cochrane, we are developing a Guideline Support Document (GSD). This will be an operational guide that broadly aims to support the use of Cochrane reviews and topic expertise within Cochrane Review Groups in the development of NICE guidelines. We are currently compiling a working draft of the GSD for inclusion within the 2022 update to the guideline manual, where it will be subject to public consultation later this year.

    We recognise the inherent value of reducing duplication of reviewing activity. However, we also accept that there will be occasions where undertaking separate reviews will be beneficial/appropriate. This is supported by the following extract from the working draft of the GSD:

    “Discuss and seek agreement from the NICE quality assurance team for the rationale for the exclusion of a Cochrane review, at the earliest opportunity, if the guideline committee is of the view that it is not appropriate for consideration in the guideline and a new review is required. On occasion, it might be appropriate or beneficial for Cochrane and NICE to produce separate systematic reviews on a topic. For example, where differing perspectives (NICE’s UK focus versus Cochrane’s global perspective) may impact on how the question is framed, or where there are particular controversies or uncertainties in a research area and replication of a review could be helpful.“

    Secondly, in terms of the quality assurance of Cochrane reviews. As above, we recognise that there will be occasions where replication of a review to ensure NICE’s needs are met will be appropriate (for example, where differences in PICOs, methodological approach etc between NICE and Cochrane might be entirely reasonable). As you say, our guideline development and quality assurance processes are designed to mitigate risk. Importantly, the GSD also provides mechanisms for linking guideline developers, the NICE QA team, Cochrane authors and the Cochrane editorial (QA) team for surfacing and understanding points of divergence which will be key in informing ongoing development of systematic reviewing and guideline development methods and processes.

    Yours sincerely,

    Professor Gillian Leng CBE
    Chief executive


    National Institute for Health and Care Excellence
    2nd Floor, 2 Redman Place
    London
    E20 1JQ
     
    FMMM1, Peter Trewhitt, Kitty and 6 others like this.
  14. CRG

    CRG Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,857
    Location:
    UK
    Yes previous connection to Cochrane probably should have been highlighted somewhere in the publicity around the NICE/CC closer ties arrangement. I guess it would have been common knowledge to all the sector insiders, nevertheless it would have been good form simply to have added a line noting Leng's involvement with both organisations when the final announcement was made. It's one of those things where not acknowledging a connection, even where no conflict of interest was involved is itself problematic, even where the connection itself was not.

    The Guideline Network looks to be a wholly logical development in terms of global health, and is probably going to be at some level a force for good. Bagging the retiring head of NICE as your Chair would be something of coup and I would guess Leng's appointment would be broadly welcomed across academia and health providers. I suppose it might raise concerns around creating a small talent pool where narrow perspectives prevail, but it's hard to see it as an appointment on anything other than merit.

    ~ new developments here: https://www.s4me.info/threads/indep...ed-by-hilda-bastian.13645/page-89#post-403356
     
    bobbler, Sean, Trish and 3 others like this.
  15. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,595
    I agree i.e. Leng's involvement with both organisations (NICE & Cochrane) should have been noted in the final announcement of the NICE/Cochrane collaboration and indeed the business case re that collaboration.

    Yes, @Caroline Struthers acknowledged Leng's suitabilty e.g. to head up Cochrane. I don't question Leng's ability but I'm far from persuaded re Cochrane producing sound reviews and presumably that also applies to Guidelines International Network (international Cochrane?). However, lets hope that I'm entirely wrong and we see Cochrane (& Guidelines International Network) producing evidence based review

    https://www.s4me.info/threads/indep...ed-by-hilda-bastian.13645/page-89#post-403366
     
    bobbler, ukxmrv, Sean and 1 other person like this.
  16. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    821
    Location:
    Oxford UK
    That is a new and impressive euphemism!
     
  17. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,602
    "Surfacing" in what sense? Bringing to the surface and revealing, or concealing the cracks. And does a "point" have a surface? Or is that a different sort of point?
     
  18. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    821
    Location:
    Oxford UK
    I was thinking thinking submarines, rather than plastering. There is a whole fleet of pointy submarines down there, desperate to be "surfaced" during future high-level Cochrane - NICE discussions.
     
    bobbler, Sly Saint, FMMM1 and 13 others like this.
  19. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,602
    Let us, for the moment, suppose that this project might be safe in the hands of GL. Why should it be thought that it would be safe in the hands of an, as yet, unidentified successor?
     
  20. Caroline Struthers

    Caroline Struthers Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    821
    Location:
    Oxford UK
    Successor is Dr Sam Roberts. https://www.linkedin.com/in/samantha-roberts-3982376a/?originalSubdomain=uk. She's all about "accelerated access" [edit] to new drugs and currently works for Legal and General...:-/. So I imagine will not have a scooby-doo about all this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022

Share This Page