News about Long Covid including its relationship to ME/CFS 2020 to 2021

[Hip]

Moderator note: Use this thread to discuss the possibility of an ME/CFS or ME/CFS-like illness following Covid-19.

Initial posts have been moved from the Coronavirus - world-wide spread and control thread. (Up to post #840 so far)

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It's interesting that in the 2003 SARS coronavirus outbreak in China (where the mortality rate was 11%), some of the survivors developed post-SARS syndrome, an ME/CFS-like condition.

 

[Mij]

It's interesting that in the 2003 SARS coronavirus outbreak in China (where the mortality rate was 11%), some of the survivors developed post-SARS syndrome, an ME/CFS-like condition.

Where did you read this? I have only seen developments of PTSD post SARS.

 

[Hip]

Where did you read this? I have only seen developments of PTSD post SARS.

It's been discussed on ME/CFS forums before. Here is a paper.

 

[Milo]

Where did you read this? I have only seen developments of PTSD post SARS.

There was a SARS outbreak in Toronto. I have also read that some went on to develop ME. i forgot where i read that from.

 

[ME/CFS Science Blog]

I wonder wether the virus will lead to an increase in ME/CFS incidence. There's this study suggesting an increase after the 2009 influenza A (H1N1) pandemic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26475444

Hope that scientists will follow up on sufficient persons affected by SARS CoV-2.

 

[Hutan]

I wonder wether the virus will lead to an increase in ME/CFS incidence. There's this study suggesting an increase after the 2009 influenza A (H1N1) pandemic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26475444

Interesting paper, Michiel.

I've made a new thread for it here:
https://www.s4me.info/threads/cfs-m...accine-2015-magnus-hornig-lipkin-et-al.13788/

 

[hinterland]

I wonder wether the virus will lead to an increase in ME/CFS incidence. There's this study suggesting an increase after the 2009 influenza A (H1N1) pandemic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26475444

Hope that scientists will follow up on sufficient persons affected by SARS CoV-2.

Yes, that's true. This might be a good opportunity for a prospective study, following the longterm outcomes of people infected by Sars-Cov-2. Similar to the study done by White et al on EBV, (probably his only ever biomedical paper and frequently cited by himself as credentials for a lack of bias, but anyway that's another story...).

 

[Snow Leopard]

I wonder wether the virus will lead to an increase in ME/CFS incidence. There's this study suggesting an increase after the 2009 influenza A (H1N1) pandemic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26475444

Hope that scientists will follow up on sufficient persons affected by SARS CoV-2.

Increased risk yes, but a tiny blip in increased cases. The incidence rate due to influenza infection in your cited study was 1 in 20000 person-months.

 

[BurnA]

There I was eating my dinner watching the BBC News to catch up on the latest about Corona virus.
Then Simon Wessely appears on screen staring right at me, spouting on about it.

Dinner ruined.

Is there anything this guy isn't an expert on.

 

[JemPD]

Oh no doubt he will be consulting on the mass panic etc. I was thinking the other day that those who may get ME after corona will be in an even worse position, with all the BS psychologising ...'you think it was more serious than it really was' type nonsense.

 

[Invisible Woman]

Well...there's no cure, possibility to blame the patient - abnormal beliefs, ineffective handwashing - maybe abnormal beliefs about the effects of handwashing .

Most recover in time, we don't really know why some others don't...

Whatever the problem, Simon can help.......soak up any spare research cash, limelight etc.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Worse than childbirth'


Clare Gerada, a London-based family doctor and former chairwoman of the Royal College of General Practitioners, has tweeted that she is now recovering after an "unwelcome visit" from Covid-19.

Dr Gerada described the experience as the "worst case of the flu I have ever had" and it was "worse than child birth".

She added that she is still going to self-isolate for another few days.

 

[Hoopoe]

@Jonathan Edwards Gerada also mentioned that she feels a strange fatigue even after the infection. I wonder if she is going to develop ME/CFS.

 

[Amw66]

@Jonathan Edwards Gerada also mentioned that she feels a strange fatigue even after the infection. I wonder if she is going to develop ME/CFS.

Ironically that might change things significantly .....

 

[alex3619]

@Jonathan Edwards Gerada also mentioned that she feels a strange fatigue even after the infection. I wonder if she is going to develop ME/CFS.

Its most probably just the more common post viral fatigue. If Covid-19 induces ME in any substantial number of survivors, and its a possibility it will, this is a nightmare scenario for the world. Even though I would welcome the sudden attention and recognition of ME, its far too high a price.

 

[NelliePledge]

@Jonathan Edwards Gerada also mentioned that she feels a strange fatigue even after the infection. I wonder if she is going to develop ME/CFS.

Needs to give herself a good talking to to sort out her unhelpful beliefs about fatigue before it goes too far.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Dr Gerada described the experience as the "worst case of the flu I have ever had" and it was "worse than child birth".

That sounds a lot like catastrophising to me.

A spot of online CBT was no doubt prescribed.

 

[Milo]

That sounds a lot like catastrophising to me.

A spot of online CBT was no doubt prescribed.

Yup yup. Catastrophizing. She has also insulted women in labor.

 

[Sean]

That sounds a lot like catastrophising to me.

OK, I admit it. I laughed at that one.

Well played, sir.

 

[rvallee]

That is a scary thought. Do we know whether the SARS outbreak in the 2000s led to people developing ME???

It appears so. Of course it was framed almost entirely as mental illness at the time so nothing came of it. There was a Reuters article that framed it entirely as psychological consequences, somatoform pain, etc. So basically nobody actually took this seriously because of the misleading framing, which is this way because nobody takes us seriously because of the misleading framing. Layers upon layers of failure lead to this.

https://bmcneurol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2377-11-37

Chronic widespread musculoskeletal pain, fatigue, depression and disordered sleep in chronic post-SARS syndrome; a case-controlled study

Chronic post-SARS is characterized by persistent fatigue, diffuse myalgia, weakness, depression, and nonrestorative sleep with associated REM-related apneas/hypopneas, an elevated sleep EEG cyclical alternating pattern, and alpha EEG sleep anomaly. Post- SARS patients had symptoms of pre and post-sleep fatigue and post sleep sleepiness that were similar to the symptoms of patients with FMS, and similar to symptoms of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome. Both post-SARS and FMS groups had sleep instability as indicated by the high sleep EEG cyclical alternating pattern rate. The post-SARS group had a lower rating of the alpha EEG sleep anomaly as compared to the FMS patients. The post-SARS group also reported less pre-sleep and post-sleep musculoskeletal pain symptoms.

The clinical and sleep features of chronic post-SARS form a syndrome of chronic fatigue, pain, weakness, depression and sleep disturbance, which overlaps with the clinical and sleep features of FMS and chronic fatigue syndrome.

A larger study of 107 patients from Toronto, with a more widely selected population [26] had shown that, at the one year mark some continued to describe problems with pain, reduced vitality, physical, mental, and social functioning. Only 14 (13%) were asymptomatic, leaving 93 patients (87%) symptomatic, where 18 (17%) had not returned to work, and 10 (9%) had returned to modified work. If one presumes that the asymptomatic group was most likely to return to unmodified work, then of the 79 patients returning to unmodified work, only 14 were asymptomatic. This leads to the arithmetic conclusion that 65 (82%) of their patients who returned to unmodified work were nevertheless continuing to work despite ongoing symptoms.

Maybe this time it's too big and personal to dismiss as mass hysteria. Maybe not. I expect no serious research to be done on this unless forced to by people screaming at authorities to do their damn job. But maybe if it hits the right people it will lead to a few epiphanies.