BMJ: Rapid response to 'Updated NICE guidance on CFS', 2021, Jason Busse et al, Co-chair and members of the GRADE working group

rvallee

Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I imagine there is supposed to be a point somewhere in there but all I read is people saying if they had been tasked with it they would have done it differently because they don't like the outcome it gave without being there to change it to their preference. No substantial argument other than they don't like being shown wrong and simply want to continue with their bad and harmful pseudoscience. It's very meandering. Unclear if it's submitted to the NICE committee or trying to influence the outcome using external political pressure.

As usual it cites the Cochrane exercise (allegedly) under review. Cochrane's inexplicable behavior is continuing to impair progress and cause harm. The obsession these people have with snake oil is beyond absurd, it's deranged and completely self-serving, pays no attention whatsoever to their actual work, this is naked self-interest, how it affects them personally.

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4774/rr-7

It appears to be people from the GRADE working group, which explains a lot about why it produces such poor results:
GHG is co-chair of the GRADE Working Group; EAA, PA, SB, MR, JJM, RM, and MR are members of the GRADE guidance and working groups; POV, PD, and MD are members of the GRADE Working Group. This Rapid Response is not an official communication from the GRADE Working Group.
 
I know nothing about GRADE and how it works.
And I would not be able to read and sort out the details of it.
But here for anyone interested are some links to the GRADE system:

BMJ:

https://bestpractice.bmj.com/info/toolkit/learn-ebm/what-is-grade/

Cochrane:

https://training.cochrane.org/grade-approach

CDC (it seems via McMaster University in Hamilton ON presentation)?

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/recs/grade/downloads/guide-dev-grade.pdf

CDC--rather long, though with some useful slides I think.
 
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4774/rr-7

It appears to be people from the GRADE working group, which explains a lot about why it produces such poor results:

People from the GRADE working group said:
The NICE evidence review associated with their guideline does not provide a GRADE evidence summary of findings table for fatigue related to exercise interventions.

They tell us why: “The use of CBT and GET (Graded Exercise Therapy) has been strongly criticised by people with ME/CFS (myalgic encephalitis/chronic fatigue syndrome) on the grounds that their use is based on a flawed model of causation involving abnormal beliefs and behaviours, and deconditioning. People with ME/CFS have reported worsening of symptoms with GET.” The authors are telling us they reject the randomized trial evidence focusing on patient-important outcomes on the basis of theoretical arguments and anecdote

It seems a bit far-fetched to combine the two: Which tables the authors of the guideline show about the grading of the the evidence of intervention studies for the benefit from the studied interventions is one thing.

(That the authors don't show tables or summaries on specific outcomes idoesn't mean they didn't grade the studies properly.)

Report of harm from other sources is a different thing.

That the authors of the guideline took into account reports on harm from other sources was due to the fact that most treatmenat studies failed to properly report harm -- a "patient-important outcome " that in therapist delivered interventions appears to be underreported per se.

Not able to check and to look again into the draft guideline and the suppementary material ATM. So please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Not able to check and to look again into the draft guideline and the suppementary material ATM. So please correct me if I'm wrong.

It does look like that part of the RR misrepresented what was said:

The NICE evidence review associated with their guideline does not provide a GRADE evidence summary of findings table for fatigue related to exercise interventions. They tell us why: “The use of CBT and GET (Graded Exercise Therapy) has been strongly criticised by people with ME/CFS (myalgic encephalitis/chronic fatigue syndrome) on the grounds that their use is based on a flawed model of causation involving abnormal beliefs and behaviours, and deconditioning. People with ME/CFS have reported worsening of symptoms with GET.” The authors are telling us they reject the randomized trial evidence focusing on patient-important outcomes on the basis of theoretical arguments and anecdote. This, of course, has nothing to do with GRADE – indeed, it is the antithesis of the GRADE approach.

They take the quote on the introduction on page 5 of this evidence review: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/gid-ng10091/documents/evidence-review-7

Introduction

7There is no known cure for ME/CFS and non-pharmacological management strategies have
8been developed. Previous guidance has recommended the use of Cognitive Behavioural
9Therapy (CBT)and Graded Exercise Therapy (GET)but these have been controversial. The
10use of CBT and GET has been strongly criticised by people with ME/CFS on the grounds
11that their use is based on a flawed model of causation involving abnormal beliefs and
12behaviours, and deconditioning. People with ME/CFS have reported worsening of symptoms
13with GET and no benefit from CBT. Although research on pacing is sparse, this method of
14activity management is preferred by many people with ME/CFS. Interventions such as
15counselling, meditation and yoga are sometimes used to improve mobility and/or general
16wellbeing. Evidence here is also lacking.
17The committee evaluated evidence from clinical effectiveness studies and patient experience
18from a wide range of non-pharmacological management strategies to inform the
19recommendation in these areas.

That was not saying why the "NICE evidence review associated with their guideline does not provide a GRADE evidence summary of findings table for fatigue related to exercise interventions".
 
I do not recognize most of these names, but it shouldn't surprise us to see Paul Garner and Flottorp, who I recall recently endorsing an RCT of the Lightning Process, on there. What a sham.
Flottorp is also a close colleague of Lillebeth Larun (main author of the Cochrane review on ME and GET) at the National institute of public health in Norway.

The name Per Olav Vandvik didn't ring any bell, but here's from the presentation of him at Oslo University's webpage:
Areas of interest revolve around use of best current evidence at the point of care within the context of evidence-based medicine and shared decision making.

Dr.Vandvik is spending most of his time heading a wonderful team of colleagues in the MAGIC research and innovation program aiming to provide clinicians and patients with trustworthy evidence summaries, guidelines and decision aids at the point of care.
 
I think that this is a sign that there's going to be more of a push-back on NICE changes than some people expected. And that it's likely to go on even if NICE does not change course.

I think this was fully expected @Esther12 but it gives us an opportunity to push back on GRADE.I have in mind a formal publication about it once the dust has settled.

GRADE is a fiasco. The ME/CFS NICE process may be a useful way to demonstrate that. It looks as if maybe all the GRADE people can do to defend it is misrepresent things.
 
I'm curious, is there any reason for concern that the cited 2020 Moustgaard study could still end up having a negative effect on the evidence review process for the final version of the guidelines? Obviously, the lack of blinding was a major factor regarding the downgrade in quality of non-pharmacological interventions for ME, so would the results of this study not be a welcome tool in the hands of BPS'ers who still have an axe to grind?
 
Can you elaborate? And not having been much familiar with GRADE before the recent issues around Cochrane and PACE, can someone explain in what other ways it has been a disaster?

GRADE works like this. You take a group of people who think that they have a reasonably good appreciation of the risks of methodology being faulty and giving unreliable results. You get them to invent a set of numbers that roughly reflect how they think they decide (although there are nice papers showing that we often do not decide the way we think we do). You give this set of numbers a name and suggest that people who may not quite know themselves how to decide on unreliability use the numbers to do it - not even their common sense. You then recommend that all studies are judged by these numbers, even by people who think they have a reasonably good appreciation of the risks and do not need numbers.

It is a bit like recommending that Michel Roux rather than judging whether a salmon en croute is perfectly cooked goes to the set of numbers in his book and works out whether it is cooked or not using the numbers. It is plain silly.

As an example, try applying a set of numbers to the likelihood of statements made by heads of state with odd-looking hairstyles being true, rather than listening to what the guy says. It's nuts.

And it was identified long ago by Ralph Waldo Emerson.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
 
The whole discussion is surreal. As I understand it, although I admit to being confused by the complexity:

Turner Stokes and Wade said that NICE was too harsh on PACW because CRADE is too harsh.
The GRADE people are saying no, GRADE is really very forgiving to bad studies (in effect) the problem was that the patients were too harsh on PACE.
The reality is that the patients and academics on the committee made a fair assessment.
So the GRADE people have merely come clean about how hopelessly lax their system is, but without realising it.
 
What I also found funny is how the statement that GRADE's emphasis is supposedly on "what is most important to patients", is juxtaposed by the argument that the NICE committee is overly influenced by the patient side, via "theoretical arguments and anecdote." The bitter irony aside, the complete disregard of the fact that the CBT/GET working hypothesis never had any theoretical foundation in reality sticks out. I suppose he thinks he's making an argument in favour of accepting the available randomized trial evidence in spite of patient complaints, while in actuality, he's making a much better point in favor of proper blinding+objective outcomes due to investigator allegiance. And I suppose his citation of the 2020 Moustgaard study is supposed to simply gloss over this, in some manner that is unknown to me.
 
I think this was fully expected @Esther12 but it gives us an opportunity to push back on GRADE.I have in mind a formal publication about it once the dust has settled.

GRADE is a fiasco. The ME/CFS NICE process may be a useful way to demonstrate that. It looks as if maybe all the GRADE people can do to defend it is misrepresent things.
But the question remains: was GRADE applied properly on the whitewash that is the "CFS" Cochrane reviews and similar work, giving high marks to unblinded studies with poor methodology and did not respect Cochrane's own rules and requirements, or was the correct application the one done by the NICE committee, which found that they are of such low quality as to be useless?

Or something in-between? Frankly what this looks like is that GRADE depends entirely on who applies it and for what purpose. Give it to someone who wants evidence to be true and it will find it to be above reproach, and vice versa. Unless I'm missing something, or many things?

Because even beyond GRADE, the Cochrane reviews on CBT and exercise should have been marked as worthless based on Cochrane's on guidelines, most trials should have been discarded at the first step yet were marked as high importance and low bias. So it's not even clear whatever people are doing in EBM respects any particular set of rules or process, it's all entirely down to whatever people want to be true and whether that thing happens to be popular enough to go through any process, regardless of substance.

Honestly this is no different than how a legislature functions, it's fully arbitrary. Evidence hardly even matters, it's entirely about what can be sold to the stakeholders who make the final decision.
 
Merged thread

New Response by an associate professor called Jason W. Busse McMaster University Canada.
Re: Updated NICE guidance on chronic fatigue syndrome
Dear Editor,

Turner-Stokes and Wade, [1] in their commentary addressing the NICE guidance on chronic fatigue syndrome, have correctly identified the highly problematic nature of the guidance. They have, however - with the exception of one sentence – made the wrong attribution of the source of the problem. The authors note, correctly that “the new draft is based on qualitative evidence provided by a small number of service users”. This, and a disastrous misapplication of GRADE methodology – rather than, as the authors contend, the GRADE methodology itself – is the source of the problem.

As the commentary authors note, the guidelines have chosen to downplay the evidence supporting graded exercise therapy. An appropriate application of GRADE would have come to a very different conclusion, as did a recent Cochrane review of exercise in chronic fatigue syndrome using GRADE methodology: “Exercise therapy probably reduces fatigue at end of treatment (SMD −0.66, 95% CI −1.01 to −0.31; 7 studies, 840 participants; moderate‐certainty evidence)”.[2]

The commentators’ inference that GRADE will consistently undervalue the quality of evidence of complex interventions is further belied by a systematic survey of Cochrane reviews.[3] The survey found that 7/16 (44%) reviews of complex interventions rated the quality of evidence of primary outcomes as moderate – sufficient in GRADE methodology to justify strong favorable recommendations.

Why did the commentators go so wrong in impugning GRADE as the source of the problem in the NICE guidance? They make the case that five aspects of GRADE will lead to nihilistic conclusions regarding quality of evidence supporting complex interventions. They are wrong on all five counts, as we will briefly illustrate.

Blinding of patients may be possible in complex interventions, and lack of blinding should not necessarily lead to rating down the certainty of evidence. Interventions such as surgery, graduated exercise, or cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) do not allow blinding of clinicians providing treatment. Blinding of patients may, however, be possible: for example, using a sham surgery control or an attention control in a trial of CBT.[4]

At the same time, trial results may or may not be appreciably affected by blinding. A recent meta-epidemiological study reported no difference in estimated treatment effect between trials with versus those without blinding of patients, healthcare providers, or outcome assessors.[5] It is therefore reasonable not to rate down the certainty of evidence for risk of bias because of failure to blind as the sole problem.

Small trials are at risk of imprecision. Complex interventions focusing on outcomes measured as continuous variables may, however, have sufficient sample sizes for robust conclusions. Note the results of the Cochrane review on chronic fatigue syndrome: their results in standard deviation units provide a point estimate of a moderate to large effect (standardize mean difference 0.66) and the lower boundary of the confidence interval (0.31) excludes the threshold – SMD of 0.2 – suggested as a small effect. [2]

Regarding directness, changes to diagnostic criteria for chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, or other complex conditions that lack pathognomonic findings may or may not affect results. Systematic review authors can explore the issue in subgroup analysis focused on diagnostic criteria. [6] The Cochrane review carries out such a subgroup analysis, and there was little or no difference between subgroups based on different diagnostic criteria. It is inappropriate to downgrade on indirectness without clear evidence of a difference in effects between trials using different criteria.

Serious inconsistency, if it exists, warrants exploration to understand the sources. Inconsistency may not, however, be a problem. For instance, the Cochrane review of chronic fatigue syndrome did not rate down results for fatigue at the end of therapy for inconsistency.[2]

GRADE does not rate down the certainty of evidence on the basis that subjective outcomes are reported directly by patients. Indeed, GRADE provides detailed guidance on presenting and interpreting results of patient reported outcomes such as fatigue, pain, physical functioning, and quality of life.[7] This guidance reflects GRADE’s emphasis on what is most important to patients. In the case of chronic fatigue syndrome, the Cochrane review finding of important improvement in fatigue with exercise will be crucial for patients in choosing their treatment.

The NICE evidence review associated with their guideline does not provide a GRADE evidence summary of findings table for fatigue related to exercise interventions. They tell us why: “The use of CBT and GET (Graded Exercise Therapy) has been strongly criticised by people with ME/CFS (myalgic encephalitis/chronic fatigue syndrome) on the grounds that their use is based on a flawed model of causation involving abnormal beliefs and behaviours, and deconditioning. People with ME/CFS have reported worsening of symptoms with GET.” The authors are telling us they reject the randomized trial evidence focusing on patient-important outcomes on the basis of theoretical arguments and anecdote. This, of course, has nothing to do with GRADE – indeed, it is the antithesis of the GRADE approach.

The commentary authors make the case for individually tailored programs combining a range of physical, cognitive and psychological approaches. They may well be right, but they then go on to state: “current NICE methods would discount any randomised controlled trials using this approach, citing risk of bias, inconsistency, imprecision, and subjective outcomes”. There are two serious problems with this statement. First, this is not the reason NICE rejected the evidence – as we have quoted above, it is because of theoretical objections and anecdotes from patients. Second, if they did reject the evidence on the basis suggested, they would be exhibiting – as we have noted – a profound misunderstanding of GRADE.

The commentary authors end by suggesting that NICE abandon GRADE for a system of rating quality of evidence that is “independent of trial design” and offer one such approach developed by the first author of the commentary and published in 2006.[8] An approach that ignores study design, would ignore advances in evidence evaluation over the last 70 years and, as we have pointed out, is based on a seriously misguided understanding of how GRADE should be appropriately applied to complex interventions
 
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I think that this is a sign that there's going to be more of a push-back on NICE changes than some people expected. And that it's likely to go on even if NICE does not change course.
I never expected for a moment that there wouldn't be HUGE pushback, of immense resistance. It was depressingly predictable; too many careers and reputations, awards received, etc are at stake to either simply keep quiet or, miraculously, to accept they had got it wrong and that things need to move on. I suspect that NICE will cave in and revert the guidelines back in favour of the wonderful 'evidence based' CBT/GET, really hope that won't be the outcome.
 
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