1. Guest, the 'News in Brief' for the week beginning 1st August 2022 is here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Welcome! To read the Core Purpose and Values of our forum, click here.
    Dismiss Notice

BPS attempts at psychologizing Long Covid

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic news - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by rvallee, Jul 22, 2020.

  1. lycaena

    lycaena Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    Germany
    Large public funded psychosomatic study to research Long-COVID. It is led by the psychosomatic department of a university clinic in Munich with the participation of several clinics in other German cities. The announcement is from October 2021. https://www.mri.tum.de/news/psyloco...chosomatische-studie-zur-erforschung-von-long

     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2022
    Sean, Michelle, Hutan and 1 other person like this.
  2. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,979
    Location:
    UK
    Nice of them look into this.

    I have long thought that such people, departments could really help people.

    Of course they may not like being custard pie targets, but that would just show their determination to help improve lives.
     
  3. lycaena

    lycaena Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    Germany
    They express themselves more cautiously than the neurologist from Essen, who says Longcovid without test results = psychosomatic.

    But this clinic has or had a bad reputation regarding ME/CFS. (Not to be confused with the Children's Hospital in Munich which takes ME/CFS seriously.) The study does not sound encouraging to me, vague buzzwords, a digital self-help programme ... possibly just more patient blaming and waste of money?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2022
    Sean, alktipping, Michelle and 3 others like this.
  4. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    20,122
    Location:
    Australia
    Hmm, I imagine for all those with Long Covid who recover (the majority) some of the assistance this study mentions could be really helpful - the support for return to work for example. What's the bet that that good support is all rolled up with the psychosomatic overlay, so there's no way to tell which bits were helpful? (I haven't checked - I would be pleasantly surprised if the study had a design testing different combinations of the 'building-blocks' and the outcomes include meaningful objective ones).

    They've been reading the BPS manual closely. A pilot study to fine tune the experimental design so that a positive result is assured - and then monetise the approach with a digital programme marketed to governments on the basis of cost-savings. @dave30th
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2022
    MEMarge, Sean, SNT Gatchaman and 5 others like this.
  5. Arnie Pye

    Arnie Pye Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,026
    Location:
    UK
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2022
    alktipping, Mithriel, Sean and 2 others like this.
  6. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    New Zealand
    It is astonishing how little critical assessment is being made by those in a position of authority. E.g. it has been established that case-control stratification via seropositivity is significantly compromised. And of course results are meaningless when cases are in control groups. As has been pointed out single-symptom comparisons are also meaningless in this context.

    The guidance to let-it-rip amongst children carries enormous risk. This is currently the messaging in NZ now too, despite the fact that we have absolutely no data on Omicron's long term effects and poor vaccine uptake for 5-11. We've recently heard that Pfizer offers little protection against infection in the 5-11 yo group, also. But everyone now seems to have convinced themselves "it's mild" and "just a cold".

    Similarly, everyone seems to have assured themselves that children's mental health will suffer unless they are in school and unmasked. It should go without saying that their mental health will suffer more from a lifetime of chronic illness or transmitting the virus to a vulnerable family member.
     
  7. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

    Messages:
    17,067
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Covid: How could the pandemic have affected your brain?

    "Memory loss, fatigue and trouble concentrating can be symptoms of having had coronavirus.

    But scientists think people who haven't had Covid are also suffering increased tiredness, impaired decision-making and a lack of focus due to the pandemic.

    Experts believe Covid uncertainty and disruption to routines have led to a phenomenon known as "pandemic brain".

    A leading behavioural neuroscientist is now calling for more research into it.

    "People form habits so we see friends on a particular day or enjoy a sport on a particular evening - and that lack of regularity can be quite challenging," said Dr Emma Yhnell."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-60558431
     
  8. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,209
  9. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,310
    Location:
    Norway
  10. Haveyoutriedyoga

    Haveyoutriedyoga Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    192
    "True, heart and respiratory problems also occur. As a rule, these are still likely to be direct consequences of the acute covid-19 disease. We refer such patients to other places."
    So...ongoing physical problems following acute covid are real, but they filter those people out and send them elsewhere. Then, some 90% of those left do not have organically caused ongoing physical problems. They only call the latter "long covid".

    What???

    Also, their filtering strategy seems to miss about 10%
     
  11. Haveyoutriedyoga

    Haveyoutriedyoga Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    192
    Apparently a major barrier to recovering from COVID/long covid is believing that you wont.

    No words on that one.

    And also once physical tests are done you will know *for sure* whether there is anything physically wrong with you. This is news.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mucOkzFCuaI


     
    ukxmrv, Ariel, Sean and 7 others like this.
  12. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,310
    Location:
    Norway
    Well, at least they're not holding anything back..

    Ekspertar meiner korona varer lenger om du er redd
    google translation: Experts believe corona lasts longer if you're afraid

    - The cause is complex, but worries and stress seem to both prolong and worsen the symptoms, says Wyller.

    Signe Flottorp, head of research at FHI, also says that if one monitors the symptoms too much, the disease can last longer.

    - Being afraid of getting ailments can in itself aggravate and perpetuate similar symptoms, she says.

    - Then it sounds as if those with long covid are hypochondriacs. Are they really that?

    - It is not the case that one should feel ashamed of not having recovered. It's a balance. Certainly if you're really struggling you can't just pull yourself together, says Flottorp in FHI.

    Wyller explains that symptoms from long covid can be related to other connections in the brain.

    - It is not something that is someone's fault, or something one imagines. The brain monitors the body all the time. Sometimes he will perceive things wrong.

    If this is the case, the brain needs to be retrained. And then the brain needs other experience.

    And here comes the attention one gives the disease in, according to Wyller.

    - This means that it may make sense to use the body carefully. Then the brain will gradually learn that it is going well.

    The challenge for doctors is to convey this to people, without those who are ill feeling that it has not been taken seriously.
     
    rainy, mango, EzzieD and 6 others like this.
  13. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,979
    Location:
    UK
    Is it just me or would these people be much more useful standing next to a wall, on a plain, thousands of miles away from other people, and cellphone towers?

    After all, we can't have remote walls being unsupervised.

    They might get depressed, jealous, commit criminal acts, or simply wander off.

    I've heard rumours that Mars had lots of canal walls that could have done with supervision, but no one thought to do so, and now they aren't there any more. So hundreds of thousands of miles of walls are out there, up to god knows what, simply because no one thought to supervise them.

    So, before we lose any more unsupervised walls.....

    We need our 'best people' on constant guard, observing them, talking to them, explaining their various 'theories' about illness to them, to ensure that doesn't happen.
     
    rainy, mango, shak8 and 7 others like this.
  14. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    9,039
    Location:
    Canada
    This is genuinely bringing discredit to the entire profession. They are completely unaware of what the patients are thinking because they never had to bother with that, but these quacks are seriously hurting the credibility of medicine by continuing to not care that the "WTF is this jerk talking about lying to my face and talking woo-woo?" faces are really just that, the face of someone who's been slapped in the face and can't believe this is happening in this context, not one who is confused by the imagination of some ideologues.

    This is talked about a lot in LC forums, and the only defense presented is always in the form of "this is new, medicine moves slowly, they can't be expected to be up-to-date on everything", which is completely undone by the fact that this nightmare has been destroying millions of lives for decades, and 2 years is frankly already way too slow anyway. There is no other defense for this, I see none that isn't explicitly based on recency bias, and ignorance that this is an old issue. This excuse will not hold for long, and it's already seriously overstretched.

    At this point it's legitimate to consider that the fears these people are obsessed with are their own, there always seems to be some story of panic at a transient episode that convinced them of whatever it is they imagine happened. The way they talk about it is explicitly centered on their perception and has everything to do with "what am I supposed to do with that patient?" It has nothing to do with us, nothing at all, only their imagination and whatever fears they attribute to us.
     
    rainy, Sean, alktipping and 4 others like this.
  15. Art Vandelay

    Art Vandelay Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    452
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    [I'm not sure where this quackery should go.]

    A BMJ blog arguing that Long Covid rehabilitation needs to expand 'beyond the biomedical paradigm'. It recommends yoga, mindfulness among other nonsense:

    This bit blew me away:

    The authors are apparently both 'senior doctors'. If that isn't bad enough, they are also Long Covid patients. Why go to the doctor to be gaslighted about your post-viral illness when you can simply gaslight yourself?

    Can modern medicine descend any further?
     
    ukxmrv, alktipping, Missense and 7 others like this.
  16. Sean

    Sean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,662
    Location:
    Australia
    Yes. :(
     
    MEMarge, Wits_End, alktipping and 7 others like this.
  17. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    11,402
    Location:
    London, UK
    If flushed appropriately.
     
    TiredSam, ukxmrv, MEMarge and 12 others like this.
  18. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,310
    Location:
    Norway
    A Senior Medical Officer at the Norwegian Institute of Public Health shared a picture on Twitter showing that Covid-19 hospital admissions are going down, which is good news.

    He comments: - But, what about "long-covid"?

    I read the comment as a sarcastic attempt to ridicule both long covid and people who are trying to raise awareness, and worry this attitude is representative for the institute.

     
    nick2155 and Trish like this.
  19. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,833
    I used to watch Independent Sage (YouTube) and I seem to recall the issue of politicians saying --- "we've broken the link between infection and hospitalisation" --- being discussed. The point was that they may not have broken the link between infections and long covid ---- not to mention the issue of vulnerable people dying.
    So the comment may be fine.
     
  20. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,263
    The authors are these two:

    https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/09/0...ge-about-long-covid-and-we-will-act-says-who/

    It could also be a genuine question?

    edit - actually other tweets make his views clearer:

    https://twitter.com/user/status/1508098329829425154
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
    petrichor, Sean, Hutan and 3 others like this.

Share This Page