Covid-19 vaccination experiences

What's the case with checking antibody levels after the vaccines? I'm asking because here the communication about this is horrible, statements often contradict each other (even the same person from healthcare sometimes contradicts himself) - I guess this is because they really want people to get vaccinated and everything they say serves that goal, scientific accuracy is of secondary importance. There is a lot of controversy around this here because for a significant number of people the Sinopharm vaccines produced no or not enough antibodies (we use several different vaccine types here). And as I said, the official communication about this here is really bad.

So now everyone is doing these antibody tests (not sure if people do the same elsewhere too). My sister convinced me to do one too (neutralizing IgG test - after enough time after two 2 doses of AZ) and my antibody levels (32.92 BAU/ml) are within the range of moderate neutralization titer (21.8 - 200 BAU/ml) but very close to the low end. For comparison, this value is in the thousands for my parents after Pfizer, and in the hundreds for my sister and her husband (AZ and Sputnik). So 32.92 really doesn't look high.

The FDA says that we shouldn't rely on these tests to check how "protected" we are. https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices...mmunity-after-covid-19-vaccination-fda-safety

"Therefore, COVID-19 vaccinated people who have not had previous natural infection will receive a negative antibody test result if the antibody test does not detect the antibodies induced by the COVID-19 vaccine. "​

But still, no one had covid in the family and everyone has much higher antibodies than me. So does that mean something or really not? This is really freaking me out now.

Edit: Found an article in English about this controversy going on here if someone is interested:
https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-sinopharm-controversy-antibody-tests/

 

Maybe completely irrelevant, but I had the jab on the left side and had at the time a recent herpes simplex lip outbreak on left side. Other than that, dunno.

 

Me too. Interesting. After my J&J covid vaccine, 2 hours after, my left cheek swelled noticeably. Thankfully not too large. Right side barely perceptible.

Also when my chronic angiodema started years ago, it was initially only on my left side of my face.

@shaki8, I too wondered if it was from the shot being in my left arm. What they said was shingles for me was also on the left side. (Only say, what they said it was shingles, cause I had no pain.)

 

The FDA advice is correct, the tests do not indicate how "protected" you are. The tests are not reliable enough for any sort of quantitative prediction about "protection". The test shows that you have seroconverted and that is all that matters as far as the test goes.

 

@Snow Leopard posted* a link to this paper a few weeks ago [https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.22.21257658v1]:
"Conclusions After 2 doses of either vaccine there were only modest differences in vaccine effectiveness [Pfizer vaccine versus AZ] with the B.1.617.2 [Indian] variant. Absolute differences in vaccine effectiveness were more marked with dose 1. This would support maximising vaccine uptake with two doses among vulnerable groups."

I've had the AZ (was hoping to get Pfizer) I'm slightly reassured that the real world experience, against a particular variant, may mean that AZ is OK. Not sure what strain(s) are circulating/dominant in Hungary. Where @Snow Leopard is the picture, re variants, is a lot clearer - they pretty much (by UK standards) don't have coronavirus!

EDIT - the word on the street here [Northern Ireland] is of a small number of people, who have been double vaccinated, being admitted to hospital - receiving oxygen but not in intensive care. Sort of emphasises the benefits of the Australian approach.


*https://www.s4me.info/threads/the-b...arch-and-treatments.14022/page-72#post-354487

 

My sister's first shot a few months ago was AZ, today she got a Pfizer b/c they ran out of AZ. She is over the moon as though she won the lottery lol

 

Thanks for this @Snow Leopard. I have been reading a little about antibodies (nothing that is conclusive so I haven't kept the references) but there have been references to some people only producing a few antibodies with the clear implication that these these people are not as well protected as those with more antibodies following vaccination.

This has been more about some individuals not creating many antibodies rather than comparisons between vaccine type.

Are there any conclusions that can safely be drawn if an individual only produces low antibodies but has seroconverted?

 

There are two issues here.
The first is whether the test is a highly accurate measure of the antibody titre in the individual. I am suggesting it isn't due to sampling and processing variability.

The second is whether the level of circulating antibodies will help prevent infection during the initial exposure in the first place. ("sterilising immunity")
If due to bad luck, or perhaps lower levels of antibodies, the individual is infected, within a few days the body will produce substantial levels of specific antibodies which will help neutralise the infection. Compare this with an unvaccinated individual where there is no immune memory and strongly neutralising antibodies take weeks to develop.

Note that antibody titres will peak at 1-2 weeks after the second "booster" dose and then decline until they reach the long-term equilibrium level. This means that any extra protection due to high levels of antibodies will last months, but is ultimately short-lived.

 

I had no worsening of symptoms in the days following my vaccines (Pfizer), but I've had a really bad few months, and I'm trying to ascertain whether the vaccines have played a role. My stamina / endurance has reduced from already low levels, less energy overall, and increase in muscle soreness. I've also had some horrible brain symptoms before sleep that are similar to stuff I've had before when crashing, but this time they were sustained over the course of around a week.

 

@FMMM1 Thanks! I'm not really worried about the AZ vaccine and its effectiveness in general but rather about my own low antibody levels after the vaccine.

There's an update actually: due to the controversy around the negative test results for some of the Sinopharm vaccines, it has been offered for these people that they can have their antibody levels retested for free within the national healthcare system (at a clinic belonging to Semmelweis University).
My sister knows a doctor there (not an immunologist) and called her because she is very worried about this: the doctor said this level is too low and it doesn't matter what the specific cutoff line at this particular private lab was, but this is practically a negative result. She said this is the first time she sees such a low number for the AZ vaccine so it is probably not a very common occurrence.

She also said it is possible that this private lab result was simply not accurate for some reason, this is something that sometimes happens, so it is better to retest me. We'll see. This is super confusing for a layman like me.

 

Good wishes @Wyva. Hope you can sort this out.

 

My stamina is really bad since having the first vaccine back in mid-April. I've also noticed that I get much more muscle pain when I am doing anything.

 

I have a neighbour, who is a medical doctor, and he recounted how, when he was working on a ship - decade ago, he found a batch of vaccine sitting out in the sun - in the Caribbean. So he just dumped it. In the real world I suppose these things can happen. Hope you get it sorted.

Haven't seen any efficacy data for Sinopharm [Chinese vaccine].

 

Some discussion on people who are not producing many antibodies in response to the vaccines. Many of these people are taking an immune suppressing drug for conditions like lupus. Discussion includes taking a third vaccine, continuing precautions like masks, and whether there may be "off target effects" of taking a third dose.


https://healthydebate.ca/2021/07/to...27bJPnCrZbCd1goxbkyYD-ssw4EalT_NRq9e1SyfuAaUM

edit: part sentence added

 

@Wyva
Raw antibody titres vs vaccine effiacy from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X21006587?via=ihub#f0005

 

Due to a 30 mile round trip I can’t get the vaccine
I wonder if I can out run it by staying isolated,will it die out like the Spanish flu did in about 2 years

 

Virologists (Vincent Rancaniello of Columbia University) believe that the SARS-CoV-2 virus will become like the other 4 corona "cold" viruses---endemic. That will take many (hundreds?) of years.

I don't think you can outrun, outlast this one, sorry.

 

The Spanish Flu never died out completely. My understanding is that there are still traces of the Spanish Flu in today's flu viruses.

 

Article about the results of the free antibody testing program in Budapest for people over the age of 60 (sparked by the Sinopharm controversy, but other vaccines - Pfizer, Moderna, Sputnik, AstraZeneca, Janssen were tested too). n=1760
It says: "Although the 1760 evaluable studies - in the absence of random selection of participants or weighting - do not represent a representative sample for Budapest over the age of sixty, the evaluation and presentation of data based on voluntary statements and data provision also provides lessons."

My vaccine, AZ, had a perfect score here, so mine is probably not an AZ issue but maybe a faulty vaccine, faulty lab result or faulty me issue.

Results translated by Google translate: https://translate.google.com/transl...vezett-antitestvizsgalat-elso-eredmenyei.aspx

Full article from a news site - Google translate (I have omitted the most political part):