Covid-19 vaccination experiences

What's the case with checking antibody levels after the vaccines? I'm asking because here the communication about this is horrible, statements often contradict each other (even the same person from healthcare sometimes contradicts himself) - I guess this is because they really want people to get vaccinated and everything they say serves that goal, scientific accuracy is of secondary importance. There is a lot of controversy around this here because for a significant number of people the Sinopharm vaccines produced no or not enough antibodies (we use several different vaccine types here). And as I said, the official communication about this here is really bad.

So now everyone is doing these antibody tests (not sure if people do the same elsewhere too). My sister convinced me to do one too (neutralizing IgG test - after enough time after two 2 doses of AZ) and my antibody levels (32.92 BAU/ml) are within the range of moderate neutralization titer (21.8 - 200 BAU/ml) but very close to the low end. For comparison, this value is in the thousands for my parents after Pfizer, and in the hundreds for my sister and her husband (AZ and Sputnik). So 32.92 really doesn't look high.

The FDA says that we shouldn't rely on these tests to check how "protected" we are. https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices...mmunity-after-covid-19-vaccination-fda-safety

"Therefore, COVID-19 vaccinated people who have not had previous natural infection will receive a negative antibody test result if the antibody test does not detect the antibodies induced by the COVID-19 vaccine. "​

But still, no one had covid in the family and everyone has much higher antibodies than me. So does that mean something or really not? This is really freaking me out now. :panda:

Edit: Found an article in English about this controversy going on here if someone is interested:
https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-sinopharm-controversy-antibody-tests/
 
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Wits_End said:
I'd be very interested to know why you got everything on the left side ...
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Me too. Interesting. After my J&J covid vaccine, 2 hours after, my left cheek swelled noticeably. Thankfully not too large. Right side barely perceptible.

Also when my chronic angiodema started years ago, it was initially only on my left side of my face.

shak8 said:
Maybe completely irrelevant, but I had the jab on the left side and had at the time a recent herpes simplex lip outbreak on left side. Other than that, dunno.
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@shaki8, I too wondered if it was from the shot being in my left arm. What they said was shingles for me was also on the left side. (Only say, what they said it was shingles, cause I had no pain.)
 
Wyva said:
So now everyone is doing these antibody tests (not sure if people do the same elsewhere too). My sister convinced me to do one too (neutralizing IgG test - after enough time after two 2 doses of AZ) and my antibody levels (32.92 BAU/ml) are within the range of moderate neutralization titer (21.8 - 200 BAU/ml) but very close to the low end. For comparison, this value is in the thousands for my parents after Pfizer, and in the hundreds for my sister and her husband (AZ and Sputnik). So 32.92 really doesn't look high.

The FDA says that we shouldn't rely on these tests to check how "protected" we are. https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices...mmunity-after-covid-19-vaccination-fda-safety
Click to expand...

The FDA advice is correct, the tests do not indicate how "protected" you are. The tests are not reliable enough for any sort of quantitative prediction about "protection". The test shows that you have seroconverted and that is all that matters as far as the test goes.
 
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Wyva said:
What's the case with checking antibody levels after the vaccines? I'm asking because here the communication about this is horrible, statements often contradict each other (even the same person from healthcare sometimes contradicts himself) - I guess this is because they really want people to get vaccinated and everything they say serves that goal, scientific accuracy is of secondary importance. There is a lot of controversy around this here because for a significant number of people the Sinopharm vaccines produced no or not enough antibodies (we use several different vaccine types here). And as I said, the official communication about this here is really bad.

So now everyone is doing these antibody tests (not sure if people do the same elsewhere too). My sister convinced me to do one too (neutralizing IgG test - after enough time after two 2 doses of AZ) and my antibody levels (32.92 BAU/ml) are within the range of moderate neutralization titer (21.8 - 200 BAU/ml) but very close to the low end. For comparison, this value is in the thousands for my parents after Pfizer, and in the hundreds for my sister and her husband (AZ and Sputnik). So 32.92 really doesn't look high.

The FDA says that we shouldn't rely on these tests to check how "protected" we are. https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices...mmunity-after-covid-19-vaccination-fda-safety

"Therefore, COVID-19 vaccinated people who have not had previous natural infection will receive a negative antibody test result if the antibody test does not detect the antibodies induced by the COVID-19 vaccine. "​

But still, no one had covid in the family and everyone has much higher antibodies than me. So does that mean something or really not? This is really freaking me out now. :panda:

Edit: Found an article in English about this controversy going on here if someone is interested:
https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-sinopharm-controversy-antibody-tests/
Click to expand...

@Snow Leopard posted* a link to this paper a few weeks ago [https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.22.21257658v1]:
"Conclusions After 2 doses of either vaccine there were only modest differences in vaccine effectiveness [Pfizer vaccine versus AZ] with the B.1.617.2 [Indian] variant. Absolute differences in vaccine effectiveness were more marked with dose 1. This would support maximising vaccine uptake with two doses among vulnerable groups."

I've had the AZ (was hoping to get Pfizer) I'm slightly reassured that the real world experience, against a particular variant, may mean that AZ is OK. Not sure what strain(s) are circulating/dominant in Hungary. Where @Snow Leopard is the picture, re variants, is a lot clearer - they pretty much (by UK standards) don't have coronavirus!

EDIT - the word on the street here [Northern Ireland] is of a small number of people, who have been double vaccinated, being admitted to hospital - receiving oxygen but not in intensive care. Sort of emphasises the benefits of the Australian approach.


*https://www.s4me.info/threads/the-b...arch-and-treatments.14022/page-72#post-354487
 
Snow Leopard said:
The FDA advice is correct, the tests do not indicate how "protected" you are. The tests are not reliable enough for any sort of quantitative prediction about "protection". The test shows that you have seroconverted and that is all that matters as far as the test goes.
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Thanks for this @Snow Leopard. I have been reading a little about antibodies (nothing that is conclusive so I haven't kept the references) but there have been references to some people only producing a few antibodies with the clear implication that these these people are not as well protected as those with more antibodies following vaccination.

This has been more about some individuals not creating many antibodies rather than comparisons between vaccine type.

Are there any conclusions that can safely be drawn if an individual only produces low antibodies but has seroconverted?
 
Binkie4 said:
Are there any conclusions that can safely be drawn if an individual only produces low antibodies but has seroconverted?
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There are two issues here.
The first is whether the test is a highly accurate measure of the antibody titre in the individual. I am suggesting it isn't due to sampling and processing variability.

The second is whether the level of circulating antibodies will help prevent infection during the initial exposure in the first place. ("sterilising immunity")
If due to bad luck, or perhaps lower levels of antibodies, the individual is infected, within a few days the body will produce substantial levels of specific antibodies which will help neutralise the infection. Compare this with an unvaccinated individual where there is no immune memory and strongly neutralising antibodies take weeks to develop.

Note that antibody titres will peak at 1-2 weeks after the second "booster" dose and then decline until they reach the long-term equilibrium level. This means that any extra protection due to high levels of antibodies will last months, but is ultimately short-lived.
 
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I had no worsening of symptoms in the days following my vaccines (Pfizer), but I've had a really bad few months, and I'm trying to ascertain whether the vaccines have played a role. My stamina / endurance has reduced from already low levels, less energy overall, and increase in muscle soreness. I've also had some horrible brain symptoms before sleep that are similar to stuff I've had before when crashing, but this time they were sustained over the course of around a week.
 
@FMMM1 Thanks! I'm not really worried about the AZ vaccine and its effectiveness in general but rather about my own low antibody levels after the vaccine.

There's an update actually: due to the controversy around the negative test results for some of the Sinopharm vaccines, it has been offered for these people that they can have their antibody levels retested for free within the national healthcare system (at a clinic belonging to Semmelweis University).
My sister knows a doctor there (not an immunologist) and called her because she is very worried about this: the doctor said this level is too low and it doesn't matter what the specific cutoff line at this particular private lab was, but this is practically a negative result. She said this is the first time she sees such a low number for the AZ vaccine so it is probably not a very common occurrence.

She also said it is possible that this private lab result was simply not accurate for some reason, this is something that sometimes happens, so it is better to retest me. We'll see. This is super confusing for a layman like me.
 
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InitialConditions said:
I had no worsening of symptoms in the days following my vaccines (Pfizer), but I've had a really bad few months, and I'm trying to ascertain whether the vaccines have played a role. My stamina / endurance has reduced from already low levels, less energy overall, and increase in muscle soreness. I've also had some horrible brain symptoms before sleep that are similar to stuff I've had before when crashing, but this time they were sustained over the course of around a week.
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My stamina is really bad since having the first vaccine back in mid-April. I've also noticed that I get much more muscle pain when I am doing anything.
 
Wyva said:
@FMMM1 Thanks! I'm not really worried about the AZ vaccine and its effectiveness in general but rather about my own low antibody levels after the vaccine.

There's an update actually: due to the controversy around the negative test results for some of the Sinopharm vaccines, it has been offered for these people that they can have their antibody levels retested for free within the national healthcare system (at a clinic belonging to Semmelweis University).
My sister knows a doctor there (not an immunologist) and called her because she is very worried about this: the doctor said this level is too low and it doesn't matter what the specific cutoff line at this particular private lab was, but this is practically a negative result. She said this is the first time she sees such a low number for the AZ vaccine so it is probably not a very common occurrence.

She also said it is possible that this private lab result was simply not accurate for some reason, this is something that sometimes happens, so it is better to retest me. We'll see. This is super confusing for a layman like me.
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I have a neighbour, who is a medical doctor, and he recounted how, when he was working on a ship - decade ago, he found a batch of vaccine sitting out in the sun - in the Caribbean. So he just dumped it. In the real world I suppose these things can happen. Hope you get it sorted.

Haven't seen any efficacy data for Sinopharm [Chinese vaccine].
 
Some discussion on people who are not producing many antibodies in response to the vaccines. Many of these people are taking an immune suppressing drug for conditions like lupus. Discussion includes taking a third vaccine, continuing precautions like masks, and whether there may be "off target effects" of taking a third dose.


https://healthydebate.ca/2021/07/to...27bJPnCrZbCd1goxbkyYD-ssw4EalT_NRq9e1SyfuAaUM

edit: part sentence added
 
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wastwater said:
Due to a 30 mile round trip I can’t get the vaccine
I wonder if I can out run it by staying isolated,will it die out like the Spanish flu did in about 2 years
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Virologists (Vincent Rancaniello of Columbia University) believe that the SARS-CoV-2 virus will become like the other 4 corona "cold" viruses---endemic. That will take many (hundreds?) of years.

I don't think you can outrun, outlast this one, sorry.
 
Article about the results of the free antibody testing program in Budapest for people over the age of 60 (sparked by the Sinopharm controversy, but other vaccines - Pfizer, Moderna, Sputnik, AstraZeneca, Janssen were tested too). n=1760
It says: "Although the 1760 evaluable studies - in the absence of random selection of participants or weighting - do not represent a representative sample for Budapest over the age of sixty, the evaluation and presentation of data based on voluntary statements and data provision also provides lessons."

My vaccine, AZ, had a perfect score here, so mine is probably not an AZ issue but maybe a faulty vaccine, faulty lab result or faulty me issue.

Results translated by Google translate: https://translate.google.com/transl...vezett-antitestvizsgalat-elso-eredmenyei.aspx

Full article from a news site - Google translate (I have omitted the most political part):

First results of a capital antibody test show that Sinopharm is the least effective vaccine in the elderly

On Tuesday, the Metropolitan Municipality published the first results of an antibody test performed on Budapest residents over the age of 60. Based on this, a quarter of those vaccinated with Sinopharm in the sample do not have antibody protection, according to a table published on the website of the Metropolitan Municipality.

Mayor Gergely Christmas announced in late June that the capital will launch a free antibody testing program, given doubts about the proper effectiveness of the Chinese Sinopharm vaccine. The first stop of the testing in the capital was available in the City Hall Park, at a mobile test point between July 5 and July 9, and the district specialist clinics are expected to be able to participate in the screening by the end of July. Most Fidesz-led districts did not request free antibody testing for the capital.

“During the testing, the tests were performed on a sample of venous blood using a SARS-CoV-2 IgG II Quant Assay method marketed by ABBOT Diagnostics, a contracted external laboratory. Applicants for testing were able to voluntarily provide data on their vaccination, on the basis of which the results can be evaluated in detail in 1760 of the 1798 examinations, ”the announcement of the Budapest Municipality writes.

The 1760 evaluable studies do not represent a representative sample of Budapesters over the age of sixty due to the random selection of participants and the lack of weighting.

In the case of Sinopharm vaccine, 23.90% of those over 60 years of age who participated in the test and reported vaccination had insufficient circulating IgG-type neutralizing antibodies. For other vaccines, the proportion who do not have adequate antibody levels is significantly lower, "the report said.

Out of the 1760 evaluable results, a total of 303 cases did not develop sufficient protection. Of the 303 individuals, 294 received Sinopharm vaccine, 7 were vaccinated with Sputnik V, and 2 were vaccinated with Pfizer / BioNTech. Based on the study, those vaccinated with AstraZeneca, Moderna and Janssen vaccines developed 100% adequate protection. Pfizer / BioNTech had 99.25 percent and Sputynik V had 94.53 percent protection. For Sinopharm, this rate is 76.1 percent.

It is debatable whether antibody measurement is sufficient

It is still debated whether cellular immunity can provide adequate protection in the face of insufficient antibody levels. But more and more researchers believe that antibody levels alone may be a good indication of protection. Academician-biologist Balázs Sarkadi told Telex in April that

“We are becoming more confident that antibody levels really show how effective a vaccine is. It seems safe enough that if antibodies against spike protein appear, they will provide quite good protection. ”

According to Emmi, a negative antibody test does not necessarily mean a lack of protection

(-Very political stuff you don't want to read-)

Emmi, citing the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), argues that a negative antibody test does not necessarily mean a lack of protection in vaccinated people. “We are among the first in the world to systematically, from multiple sides and with most vaccines, examine full (cellular and humoral) immunity in the long run.

These results are continuously available for use by the Government in taking policy measures. Given the complexity of the study, it will be possible to publish the entire research material once it has been completed, meets scientific ethical criteria and has been published in scientific forums, "wrote Emmi.

Edit: the original article: https://telex.hu/koronavirus/2021/0...vizsgalat-elso-eredmenyek-sinopharm-vedettseg
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