1. Sign our petition calling on Cochrane to withdraw their review of Exercise Therapy for 'CFS'.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, the 'News in Brief' for the week beginning 4th November 2024 is here.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Welcome! Read the Core Purpose and Values of our forum.
    Dismiss Notice

Paul Garner on Long Covid and ME/CFS - BMJ articles and other media.

Discussion in 'Long Covid news' started by lycaena, May 5, 2020.

Tags:
Page 85 of 115
  1. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    29,374
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    Thanks for the mention of David Bell's work, @Denise and Snowdrop. It was interesting to read that thread in the context of Garner's assertions about normality.
     
    Hutan, Feb 14, 2022
    #1681
    Ariel, alktipping and ukxmrv like this.
  2. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,064
    Location:
    Australia
    I think this is a big factor in the deeply rooted denial of the realities of ME, et al, by both the medical profession and everybody else.

    IIRC, there was a puff piece on Wessely many years back where he discussed why he went into psychiatry, and clearly part of it was that he was uncomfortable with the physical body. Not that I am accusing him of projection. :whistle:
    I got sick in 1984 and did not get diagnosed for over four years. I had never heard of ME before being diagnosed, and I couldn't possibly have heard of CFS because the term didn't exist for the first three years I was sick.

    This was also all well before the internet existed. So I couldn't possibly have being influenced by that.
    To be cost effective a therapy has to be clinically effective first.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2022
    Sean, Feb 15, 2022
    #1682
    Michelle, Ariel, alktipping and 14 others like this.
  3. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,861
    Location:
    UK
    Not entirely true.

    All it has to do is get the patients to go away and not come back, so they can be counted as 'cured'.

    Obviously the cheapest way of doing this would be seen as the most cost effective, medically.
     
    Wonko, Feb 15, 2022
    #1683
    Michelle, Ariel, alktipping and 13 others like this.
  4. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,812
    I agree and I'm not aware of any objective evidence that these interventions work - if fact the objective evidence indicates that they don't work e.g. the PACE trial participants didn't return to their previous healthy lives --- return school, hours worked* ---
    EDIT - I think there's still merit in the cost argument. E.g. if you look at the PACE trial: number of participants receiving the intervention, number who (objectively) significantly improved (0 is my assumption) then you can estimate a cost per patient per year. There's a cap that NICE apply so if an intervention can be shown to cost more than that, then it's not supported on the basis of cost alone. So if the Paul Garners turn up with claims, that these interventions work, then they can be dismissed on the basis that the available evidence indicates that the cost/benefit exceeds threshold.
    Others have written about this on Science 4 ME - more coherently than I have.

    *
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1359105317703785
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2022
    FMMM1, Feb 15, 2022
    #1684
    ukxmrv, Wits_End, alktipping and 1 other person like this.
  5. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,816
    Even now, I feel what I call ME-ish. Part of that feeling is that I need to go for a long walk to get my body going again, some fresh air and stretching. Bitter experience tells me it wouldn't work. Listening to what our bodies need only works if they are not damaged.
     
    Mithriel, Feb 15, 2022
    #1685
    FMMM1, ukxmrv, Wits_End and 7 others like this.
  6. Adam pwme

    Adam pwme Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    679
    Adam pwme, Feb 15, 2022
    #1686
    FMMM1, Barry, Hutan and 1 other person like this.
  7. alktipping

    alktipping Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,294
    i clicked like on the above post not because of the content but because this man seems to get a lot of air time . considering that he is an insult to anyone who actually practices the scientific method rather than dogmatic beliefs.
     
    alktipping, Feb 15, 2022
    #1687
    Ariel, FMMM1, EzzieD and 6 others like this.
  8. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    9,559
    Is there enough material for a docu mini series on Netflix?

    Who are the stars? Paul, only Paul.

    The documentary attempts to strip away the traditional negativity and stigma attached to long-Covid. It gets a real-life professor of Tropical Medicine to open up about post-infectious issues he faced and how he overcame it from using his mind.
     
    Mij, Feb 15, 2022
    #1688
    FMMM1, alktipping, Caroline Struthers and 3 others like this.
  9. Suffolkres

    Suffolkres Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,628
    'Brave' 'courageous doctor'? fights on through Covid experience with 112 articles, interviews and appearances all over the world- including a nice diving trip abroad- and that's only counting up until January 2021!!!

    How does he fit in his day job?
    Has he got a day job?

    Quotes.....

    'Weird as hell’: the Covid-19 patients who have symptoms for months
    Professor can't shake Covid-19 symptoms months after diagnosis
    'Like being hit with a cricket bat’: A doctor’s battle with long COVID
    Coronavirus patients with even mild cases of COVID-19 are taking months to recover and suffering extreme fatigue
    COVID-19 sufferer Paul Garner told her about his symptoms. "Suddenly, it crept up on me: very severe exhaustion," he said. "I found I could barely stand, I had this episode where I went to bed with a tremendous headache and tremendous palpitations and my heart was beating rapidly – still no temperature..."It's so frightening in the way that it comes at you and how it vanishes for a little bit – 'I'm OK at the moment' – and then comes back again. It's really frightening."

    https://www.evidence4health.org/new...r-discusses-his-experience-of-having-covid-19

    beware it is a very long list!
    Paul’s core blogs


    Interviews and articles related to Paul’s Covid-19 experience


    Video
     
    Suffolkres, Feb 16, 2022
    #1689
    Mithriel, Michelle, oldtimer and 19 others like this.
  10. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,861
    Location:
    UK
    He might be one of those 'patient activists' I keep hearing about - possibly the most prolific in history.

    Which is pretty good going given it's entirely down to the strength of his brain.

    The very same brain that decided his behaviour is professional, appropriate and will benefit patients, as opposed to just him.

    Pity about the message he has chosen to promote, and its potential effect on virtually everyone else's health/welfare on the planet.

    But...well deserving of a rotten banana.

    Several billion tonnes of them in fact.
     
    Wonko, Feb 16, 2022
    #1690
    Michelle, Ariel, FMMM1 and 15 others like this.
  11. Suffolkres

    Suffolkres Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,628
    pgtips2.jpg Makes 'PG tips' have another connotation.......
     

    Attached Files:

    • pg3.jpg
      pg3.jpg
      File size:
      96.2 KB
      Views:
      10
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2022
    Suffolkres, Feb 16, 2022
    #1691
    alktipping, Simbindi, Caroline Struthers and 2 others like this.
  12. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,761
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    "So it's an area of medicine... that is not well researched."

    Agreed.
     
    SNT Gatchaman, Feb 16, 2022
    #1692
    Michelle, FMMM1, alktipping and 5 others like this.
  13. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,761
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    Also, how does he manage to claim that the Spanish influenza "was probably coronavirus"?

    Please, can his colleagues discourage him from talking to the media. He is not helping himself and he is certainly not helping humanity.

    (It was alphainfluenzavirus H1N1. It started in the US, not Spain.)
     
    SNT Gatchaman, Feb 16, 2022
    #1693
    geminiqry, Michelle, Ariel and 20 others like this.
  14. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    9,559
    He doesn't receive many(any?) 'likes' for his tweets from people in his field. Perhaps some are contacting him privately. His 'likes' are mostly from accounts with things dramatic, whimsical and musical.
     
    Mij, Feb 16, 2022
    #1694
    Ariel, ukxmrv, alktipping and 4 others like this.
  15. Suffolkres

    Suffolkres Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,628
    s3-news-tmp-137339-pg1--default--1270.jpg
     
    Suffolkres, Feb 16, 2022
    #1695
    Caroline Struthers, alktipping and JemPD like this.
  16. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,812
    For a professor of infectious diseases, that's a pretty basic mistake i.e. "Spanish" flue was a coronavirus!
     
    FMMM1, Feb 20, 2022
    #1696
    Michelle, hibiscuswahine, EzzieD and 1 other person like this.
  17. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    8,420
    Given how gross a mistake that is for someone so apparently qualified to know better, I begin to wonder if it really was a mistake on his part, or a deliberate attempt to mislead those who would not know better, but would instead blindly accept the word of someone with his qualifications?
     
    Barry, Feb 20, 2022
    #1697
    Mithriel, alktipping, FMMM1 and 2 others like this.
  18. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,812
    Yea it seems slightly weird.
    From memory the virus which caused "Spanish" flue has been characterised/sequenced - it was isolated from frozen bodies in the (North American) Arctic.
     
    FMMM1, Feb 20, 2022
    #1698
    Mithriel, Barry, Wonko and 1 other person like this.
  19. Wyva

    Wyva Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,721
    Location:
    Budapest, Hungary
    The virus that caused the Spanish flu was influenza, namely H1N1.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H1N1
     
    Wyva, Feb 20, 2022
    #1699
    EzzieD, FMMM1, Wonko and 2 others like this.
  20. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,861
    Location:
    UK
    But surely an infectious disease specialist cannot be expected to know anything about one of the most well known infectious diseases outbreaks, that killed tens of millions, in recent history?

    That surely isn't something he should be expected to know?

    It's not as if he was a historian.

    Just coz everyone else knows it.
     
    Wonko, Feb 20, 2022
    #1700
    Mithriel, Hutan, MEMarge and 7 others like this.
Page 85 of 115

Share This Page