I would like to say ME but because of the stigma now attached to what was once a respectable name
I think it is interesting to re-read this five -year long thread.

As far as I am aware ME was only ever a 'respectable name' for the acute contagious illness with apparent focal neurological signs seen at the Royal Free and thought perhaps also to have occurred in Iceland and California. The medical profession, as far as I know, has never officially seen 'ME' as the name for what we call ME/CFS - a long term disabling condition with PEM.

A few physicians, especially in the UK, starting using 'ME' to describe people with ME/CFS but I am fairly sure that most of them thought they were diagnosing the original Royal Free illness, which as far as we know they were not. I think some GPs may have joined in using 'ME' but probably without knowing quite why. Patients thought they were getting a bona fide diagnosis but the vast majority of doctors had no clear idea what was being referred to.

It would be interesting to know on what basis the WHO decided to include ME as a diagnosis and call it a neurological disease, maybe around 1970. I think it highly likely that they were following the original idea of a specific contagious illness with apparent focal neurological signs.

ME has never appeared much in textbooks. The first attempt to define ME/CFS may have been Fukuda 1994, which called it CFS. Then CCC in 2003 made it ME/CFS. ICC tried to make it just ME but clearly because some of the 'experts' still thought they were dealing with some for of neuroinflammatory disease, as at the RFH.

There is also a view that ME is really a disease of energy metabolism, but I don't think it has ever been defined as such and we don't have much evidence support for that.

I agree with Peter that spending a lot of time on the name seems pointless. On the other hand, the considerable media coverage at the moment and the calls for action to Streeting and so on demonstrate just to what extent the different ideas of what ME means confuse any useful advocacy.
When I got and stayed severely ill for 5 years after a severe respiratory virus in February 1983, things were very different, indeed out of all recognition, from now. It was called ME among doctors who knew about the phenomenon of staying ill after a virus with the set of symptoms I had, which did include inflamed-feeling brain & spine, and marked muscle myalgia after physical exertion (plus gastro dysbiosis and cardiac hiccups). A few doctors told me they understood the situation, saying 'These things often start with a virus' and that 'it usually goes away within 2 to 5 years'. So some doctors did know about this back then.

The only definition at that time was the Ramsay one, which described my symptom set well. His one reference to fatigue was about quick and easy muscle fatiguability after exertion, not constant generalised fatigue. 'Fatigue' was never my main symptom. I don't recognise myself in the current definitions of 6 months unexplained fatigue plus optionally a few vague symptoms. (Am glad that at least PEM was recently added but it looks like doctors think that simply means increased 'fatigue'.)

Then along came the 'Yuppie Flu' churnalism in the press a couple of years after I got ill which I can only guess was some coordinated agenda to make ME look trivial, followed by the psychiatrists putting themselves forward as experts on a condition they knew nothing about, psychosomaticising it with the goal of making it look even more trivial. Thankfully at around that time (1988), I got cured of ME by off-label use of pharmaceutical drugs. This was not by some alternative private quack or similar, but my own NHS GP who wanted to help me. Yes, GPs could do that back then, there were no NICE Guidelines, doctors back then could think for themselves. It was a whole different world from now. My GP tried some drugs according to biomedical research on ME that was being reported in the news at the time, and miraculously it worked. I was able to go back to work, only part-time and had to rest a lot and pace myself social-life-wise, but fantastic after 5 years of severe illness. By 1990 I had made a full recovery and I didn't keep up with any further news about ME, I just wanted to forget it ever happened.

Then in 2005 I got struck down again, by a gastrointestinal virus, and ended up with severe ME worse than I'd had before. Feeling confident that a cure had been discovered by now, so that I could get back to my job ASAP, I did some googling and was horrified to find that not only had no progress been made, but it had all gone backwards big-time. ME was now called 'CFS', CBT & GET were the only 'treatments' for it, which I knew couldn't possibly help ME and were complete nonsense, and the definition of 'CFS' was now just 6 months of unexplained fatigue. What about the sensation of brain & spine inflammation, the muscle dysfunction, the cardiac arrhythmias, the extreme gut infection/dysbiosis symptoms, and more? Nope, just 'fatigue'. So now people who are fatigued but don't have the other symptoms of classic ME, got added to a vague new invented diagnosis, CFS, along with those who do have the classic ME symptoms, and it's all a shambles. No wonder nobody can find a biomarker, with such a mixed group.

In any case, that's a bit of first-hand history of how things were 40 years ago. There was plenty of research going on back then which soon got swept under the carpet by the psychs and their enablers. Now new bio researchers are finding all the same roads to go down thinking they've discovered something new, when it's the same as what researchers were finding in the 1980s before the psychs barged in. But let's hope it 'sticks' this time and doesn't get quietly dropped again.

The WHO classified ME as a neurological illness in 1969. The psychs tried to get that removed and have it reclassified as a mental illness, but thankfully the WHO didn't cave in to that.
 
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It was called ME among doctors who knew about the phenomenon of staying ill after a virus with the set of symptoms I had, which did include inflamed-feeling brain & spine, and marked muscle myalgia after physical exertion (plus gastro dysbiosis and cardiac hiccups). A few doctors told me they understood the situation, saying 'These things often start with a virus' and that 'it usually goes away within 2 to 5 years'. So some doctors did know about this back then.

I can understand that it would seem like that if you were in contact with one of a small number of doctors who shifted the meaning early in this way. However, in the 1970s and early 1980s my mother was the virologist in charge of EBV at the Central Public Health Lab at Colindale which monitored EBV infections across the country. I was a junior doctor. We met weekly for dinner and I remember conversations about post-viral fatigue being common with EBV and the fact that she had diagnosed it in me ten years before. I also remember her referring to myalgic encephalomyelitis or 'Royal Free Disease' as a postulated new viral illness that she and her colleagues could never substantiate. Admittedly she saw it from the virological side but I was getting the same message from colleagues at UCH, Guy's and Bart's.

I am sure that some doctors did shift the meaning of ME to cover post-viral fatigue but if the WHO classified it as a neurological disease in 1969 I think it likely that they thought they were logging Royal Free Disease, since ME/CFS as we now know it, or if you like ME as we now know it, does not have any specific neurological features. Muscle aches and pains and swollen glands, headaches and inflamed feelings occur with flu and we don't call that a neurological disease.

I think it matters because people being told they have ME are still given the impression that they have some sort of neuroinflammatory disease and we don't have evidence for that. I worry similarly about patients being told they have problems with oxygen delivery when we have no evidence for that. It distracts everyone from the actual clinical problem and how best to cope with it.
 
I can understand that it would seem like that if you were in contact with one of a small number of doctors who shifted the meaning early in this way. However, in the 1970s and early 1980s my mother was the virologist in charge of EBV at the Central Public Health Lab at Colindale which monitored EBV infections across the country. I was a junior doctor. We met weekly for dinner and I remember conversations about post-viral fatigue being common with EBV and the fact that she had diagnosed it in me ten years before. I also remember her referring to myalgic encephalomyelitis or 'Royal Free Disease' as a postulated new viral illness that she and her colleagues could never substantiate. Admittedly she saw it from the virological side but I was getting the same message from colleagues at UCH, Guy's and Bart's.

I am sure that some doctors did shift the meaning of ME to cover post-viral fatigue but if the WHO classified it as a neurological disease in 1969 I think it likely that they thought they were logging Royal Free Disease, since ME/CFS as we now know it, or if you like ME as we now know it, does not have any specific neurological features. Muscle aches and pains and swollen glands, headaches and inflamed feelings occur with flu and we don't call that a neurological disease.

I think it matters because people being told they have ME are still given the impression that they have some sort of neuroinflammatory disease and we don't have evidence for that. I worry similarly about patients being told they have problems with oxygen delivery when we have no evidence for that. It distracts everyone from the actual clinical problem and how best to cope with it.
That's so interesting to see it from your mother's viewpoint, thank you. I was lucky to get a few understanding doctors, and yes, they did think it was the same thing as Royal Free Disease, and indeed I got referred to the Royal Free Hospital. I did see a few doctors at first who were very patronising and insisted I had 'anxiety' and/or 'depression' and refused to consider that what I had was physical; I had to change GP three times before I found the one who took me seriously. Yes, later in the 1980s some doctors were considering EBV as a cause, but I've never had EBV.

Yes, the meaning of ME has shifted out of recognition since back then, muddying the waters so much that I despair of ever seeing a biomarker and/or actual curative treatment in my lifetime. Here's hoping DecodeME finds something.

Thank you for taking an interest in this wretched subject, very grateful for all you do!
 
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Wendy Boutilier
Yesterday, someone asked me about ME without Myalgia. I didn’t give them a complete answer that I should have. Hopefully this post will help correct that.
“Myalgic” Doesn’t Mean Everyone Has Muscle Pain
* The name Myalgic Encephalomyelitis literally means “muscle pain with inflammation of the brain and spinal cord.”
* However, over time, researchers have recognized that not all patients experience pronounced muscle pain, even though they meet ME diagnostic criteria.
* The core feature of ME is post-exertional neuroimmune exhaustion (PENE) which is a worsening of symptoms after minimal effort — not necessarily pain.
Variable Symptom Patterns
* Some people have mainly neurological and autonomic symptoms (e.g., cognitive dysfunction, dizziness, sleep disturbance) with minimal or no muscle pain.
* Others experience deep aching, burning, or flu-like muscle pain as a major symptom.
* Symptom profiles can also change over time — for instance, early in the illness muscle pain may be absent, then appear later during relapses.
Diagnostic Criteria Support This
* ICC 2011 (International Consensus Criteria) and CCC 2003 (Canadian Consensus Criteria) both describe pain as common but not required for diagnosis.
*ICC wording: “Pain is common but not necessarily
Universal. A person can still fully meet criteria for ME without muscle pain if they have the defining neurological, immune, and energy production abnormalities.
How to Explain It Clinically
“I don’t have muscle pain, but my exhaustion after any activity is extreme,” that’s still consistent with ME — especially if there’s:
* Delayed symptom worsening after exertion (PENE)
* Cognitive dysfunction
* Orthostatic intolerance
* Immune or autonomic abnormalities
So in summary:
Yes — a person can have ME without myalgia. The “myalgic” part of the name reflects early clinical descriptions but isn’t required for diagnosis. The defining feature remains post-exertional neuroimmune exhaustion.
The ICC 2011 Carruthers eg el’ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21777306/
ICPrimer 2012 https://www.investinme.org/.../Myalgic...
“Clinical Profile and Aspects of Differential Diagnosis in Patients with ME/CFS from Latvia” — a study of 55 people diagnosed with ME/CFS showing that 96.4% reported myalgia, meaning around 3.6% did not in that study. This supports the point that while very common, myalgia is not universally present. https://www.mdpi.com/1648-9144/57/9/958?
People often use the term “post-exertional malaise” or PEM when talking about what happens after exertion in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS). But what defines Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME) is not just malaise or tiredness — it is Post-Exertional Neuroimmune Exhaustion (PENE). The two terms sound similar, but they describe very different experiences and biological processes.
Post-Exertional Malaise (PEM) — in CFS
In CFS, PEM generally means feeling worse after doing too much. A person might feel more fatigued, achy, or mentally foggy for a while. It’s unpleasant, but it’s often viewed as a temporary increase in symptoms, similar to what healthy people feel after overexertion — only stronger and longer-lasting. It usually improves with extra rest.
Post-Exertional Neuroimmune Exhaustion (PENE) -ME
In ME, the reaction is far more severe and far more dangerous. PENE means that the nervous system and immune system become pathologically overactivated and then fail to recover after even very small amounts of activity; physical, mental, or emotional. This is not just feeling more tired. It is a full neurological and immunological crash. The exhaustion of PENE is not ordinary fatigue. It feels like the body’s energy system has been “shut down.” People may feel paralyzed, poisoned, or flu-like, and can become bedbound or unable to speak, move, or think clearly.
It can take 24 to 72 hours or more after the activity for the crash to appear, and recovery can take days, weeks, or months. During PENE, there is measurable evidence of biological change:
* The nervous system shows reduced brain blood flow and poor communication between brain regions.
* The immune system shows abnormal cytokine responses as if the body is fighting an infection that isn’t there.
* The cellular energy system (mitochondria) cannot produce energy normally, and lactic acid builds up in the muscles.
* The autonomic nervous system loses control of heart rate, blood pressure, and temperature, leading to dizziness, chills, or flushing.
Even very small activities — like brushing teeth, talking for too long, or sitting upright — can trigger this crash. The worsening is disproportionate to the effort and is not relieved by rest or sleep.
This distinguishes ME from CFS.
Summary in Simple Words
*Post-Exertional Malaise in CFS means “I feel worse after I do things.” *Post-Exertional Neuroimmune Exhaustion in ME means “My body crashes after even tiny efforts because my brain, nerves, and immune system can’t recover.”
*PEM is a symptom. *PENE is a systemic breakdown.
………..
Managing Post-Exertional Malaise (PEM)—the symptom seen in CFS—is different from managing PENE in ME, though some strategies overlap. PEM is generally less severe and more responsive to rest than PENE.
For PEM
Recognize early signs
* Fatigue, brain fog, muscle aches, headaches, or irritability can signal PEM is starting.
* Stopping activity early, before symptoms get severe, can reduce the intensity and duration of PEM.
Rest
* Rest is the most important management tool for PEM.
* Light physical rest, lying down, or short naps can help reduce symptom severity.
* Unlike PENE, PEM usually improves with sleep or a short recovery period.
Activity pacing
* Spread activities evenly across the day to avoid overexertion.
* Alternate tasks that require physical, mental, or emotional energy with periods of rest.
* Keep activity at a level you can tolerate without triggering PEM, even if it feels like you’re underperforming.
Gentle symptom management
* Over-the-counter pain relief or anti-inflammatory medications can help with aches and headaches.
* Hydration and light nutrition support recovery.
* Mild stretching or very gentle movement may help maintain flexibility without triggering PEM.
Emotional support
* PEM can cause frustration, guilt, or anxiety.
* Support from friends, family, or patient groups can help reduce stress, which may otherwise worsen symptoms.
Monitoring and adjustment
* Keep a log of activities and symptom changes to identify personal triggers.
* Gradually adjust activity levels based on tolerance, but avoid “push-crash” cycles.
……….
Key difference from PENE:
* PEM is a temporary worsening of symptoms that usually improves with rest and time.
* PENE in ME is a pathological crash caused by neuroimmune dysfunction, often triggered by even tiny amounts of exertion, and may not improve with rest quickly.
……….
For PENE
Pacing is staying within your energy limits..
Pacing means learning to live within what’s called your energy envelope; the small amount of energy your body can safely use without crashing. To do this, you notice the signs that your body is nearing its limit such as brain fog, dizziness, pain, or feeling heavy, and you stop before those signs worsen. It’s better to rest too early than too late. If you overstep your energy limit, even by a small amount, it can trigger a delayed crash lasting days or weeks. If you drain it completely, it takes much longer to recharge, and sometimes it never goes back to its previous level.
Complete rest
*Rest is not optional in ME. It is a medical necessity.
*Resting early, often, and deeply helps reduce the severity and frequency of crashes.
*Rest means lying still, ideally in a quiet, dark space, without stimulation such as talking, screens, or thinking tasks.
*Some people need to lie flat to prevent orthostatic symptoms (low blood pressure or fast heart rate when upright).
Cognitive and sensory rest
Mental effort can trigger the same kind of crash as physical effort. Activities like reading, concentrating, listening, or being around bright lights or loud sounds can all cause worsening. Give your brain rest periods between short tasks, and use earplugs, soft lighting, or dark glasses if needed.
Energy-saving habits
*Group small tasks together when you can, and simplify your environment.
*Use mobility aids or supportive devices if they allow you to conserve energy.
*Sit rather than stand whenever possible.
*Ask for help with meals, cleaning, and errands to prevent overexertion.
Recovery after a crash
*If a PENE episode happens, go into full rest mode as soon as you can.
*Lie flat, stay quiet, avoid stimulation, and eat or drink as tolerated.
*Do not try to push through or “recondition” — doing so can cause long-term worsening.
*The only reliable recovery tool is time and gentle rest.
Emotional care
Crashes can feel frightening or discouraging. Try to remind yourself that this reaction is a biological process, not your fault. Compassion, calm environments, and gentle reassurance help reduce stress, which can also lessen symptom severity.
In summary
*The best way to manage ME and prevent PENE is by balancing every bit of activity with equal or greater rest.
*Rest before you think you need it.
*Stop before your body forces you to.
*Over time, this careful pacing helps protect what little energy your body can still make — and that protection is your strongest form of treatment.
In Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME), Post-Exertional Neuroimmune Exhaustion (PENE) is not just feeling tired after activity. It is a biological crash in which the nervous system, immune system, and energy metabolism are all overwhelmed.
PENE can be so severe that the body’s ability to recover is greatly reduced. Repeated or extreme PENE episodes can weaken a person over time, sometimes to the point where full recovery is impossible. In the most severe cases, this can leave a person bedbound or completely dependent on care, with profoundly limited physical, cognitive, and sensory function.
This is why avoiding overexertion and pacing within the body’s energy limits is critical. PENE is dangerous because it can progress the illness and cause long-term deterioration, unlike fatigue or the milder PEM seen in CFS.
Even small activities such as talking for too long, standing, or mental effort can trigger PENE, and the worsening may not appear immediately, sometimes taking 24 to 72 hours to fully manifest. Once triggered, there is no quick fix; recovery relies on careful rest and time, and even then, some losses may be permanent.
International Consensus Criteria for ME (2011)
* Carruthers, B. et al. Myalgic Encephalomyelitis: International Consensus Criteria.
* Key point: This paper explicitly distinguishes PENE from fatigue or PEM, describing it as the hallmark symptom of ME and warning that overexertion can cause severe, long-lasting crashes
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21777306/
National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) – 2021 Guideline for ME/CFS
* NICE recognizes post-exertional symptom exacerbation (PESE) as a key symptom.
* They caution that overexertion can worsen illness severity and cause long-term decline, aligning with the concept of PENE.
https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng206
Educational Articles / Reviews
* Newton JL, et al. Management of ME: recognizing post-exertional neuroimmune exhaustion.
* Explains why PENE is different from fatigue and why pacing and rest are essential for preventing long-term harm. https://25megroup.org/.../PENE-is-Post-Exertional...
* Fluge Ø, et al. Evidence of metabolic dysfunction and post-exertional crash in ME.
* Discusses biological mechanisms behind PENE, showing it’s not psychological or voluntary. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28018972/

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https://www.facebook.com/groups/1063785371126868/posts/2023741918464537/
 
I do wish people would stop putting out misinformation like this. As long as this goes on physicians will ignore people with ME/CFS and refuse to see them in clinics or do any research. The harm done to other people with the disease is immeasurable.

The myalgic belonged to another proposed illness that turned out not to exist. We need to start afresh without this baggage.
 
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