Trisha Greenhalgh on ME/CFS and Long Covid

Trish said:
structural and functional brain changes
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interesting that he acknowledges structural changes. They keep using the software/hardware metaphor even though their own research shows structural changes as well. But they then suggest the structural changes could be downstream of the "software" problem. But here he seems to be making a clearer statement that structural changes can play a role.
 
They defined functional as no underlying structural (organic) pathology.

If there are structural changes, then by their own definition it cannot be functional.

They can't have it both ways. Though they are clearly going to give it a red hot go.
 
Sean said:
They defined functional as no underlying structural (organic) pathology.

If there are structural changes, then by their own definition it cannot be functional.

They can't have it both ways. Though they are clearly going to give it a red hot go.
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It seems to me that they are making it up as they go along, which only makes me have less trust in the medical profession than I already had.
 
See also this from Stone.

Are those two pillars of the FND establishment, Stone and Carson, backing off from their more extreme certainty and claims?

I am hoping that, among other things, they are being, um, counselled behind the scenes by their senior biomedical colleagues about the consequences if they continue down this highly unscientific and unethical path.
 
Sean said:
See also this from Stone.

Are those two pillars of the FND establishment, Stone and Carson, backing off from their more extreme certainty and claims?

I am hoping that, among other things, they are being, um, counselled behind the scenes by their senior biomedical colleagues about the consequences if they continue down this highly unscientific and unethical path.
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Perhaps it's a bit more nuanced - you might get more challenges when medical colleagues have long COVID .
 
Sean said:
They defined functional as no underlying structural (organic) pathology.

If there are structural changes, then by their own definition it cannot be functional.

They can't have it both ways. Though they are clearly going to give it a red hot go.
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Not for the first time I’m reminded of F. Scot Fitzgerald’s line: “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.”

Were they to observe themselves from the outside I wonder if they would consider themselves to have a software or a hardware problem.

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Does anyone know what Carson means when he refers to a “functional cause”? And what is “clinical and scientific evidence of a functional cause”? I thought they diagnosed FND by an absence of evidence of cause.
 
Jonathan Edwards said:
I pagliacci.
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Am I the only one who has no idea what this means?

Jonathan Edwards said:
Round, like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever-spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's burning
Running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping
Past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space

Like the circles that you find

In the windmills of your mind.

...
Half-remembered names and faces
But to whom do they belong
When you knew that it was over
Were you suddenly aware
That the autumn leaves were turning
To the color of her hair
Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever-spinning reel
As the images unwind

Like the circles that you find

In the windmills of your mind.
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Or this!
 
Robert 1973 said:
I’ve done the same to no apparent avail:
Not for the first time, I’ve noticed that TG has responded to lots of replies and suggestions but not to anyone who mentions ME/CFS. Is anyone taking bets on whether ME/CFS gets a mention in her paper?
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If the Marks paper was published in a respectable journal, TG might feel more obliged to respond to replies which foreground it. It’s unfortunate all round that citing the paper is the equivalent of linking to a blog.
 
Sly Saint said:
1st is I think 'the clowns', second is lyrics to Windmills of your mind.
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But what do the lyrics mean? They are completely opaque to me. Or is that the point?

I’m guessing the reason for writing the clowns in Italian was an allusion to the narrative of the opera (which I’m not familiar with). But maybe I’m giving Jo too much credit!
 
Robert 1973 said:
But what do the lyrics mean? They are completely opaque to me. Or is that the point?

I’m guessing the reason for writing the clowns in Italian was an allusion to the narrative of the opera (which I’m not familiar with). But maybe I’m giving Jo too much credit!
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I assumed it was about the circles and the recycling of old psychosomatic ideas to the consequences of the latest virus
 
NelliePledge said:
I assumed it was about the circles and the recycling of old psychosomatic ideas to the consequences of the latest virus
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Or it’s a deliberate reference to The Thomas Crown Affair, for which the song was written. Edwards places Greenhalgh in the Steve McQueen role, suggesting that she has pulled off the perfect public health policy heist by ensuring deniable distance from her collaborators.
 
Where is the mounting scientific evidence of functional causation? Is it based on rule in signs? Where is the evidence that any rule in signs mean a condition is functional?

Can someone explain how Carson became an august voice in the Long Covid space? It’s unnerving
 
Charles B. said:
Where is the mounting scientific evidence of functional causation? Is it based on rule in signs? Where is the evidence that any rule in signs mean a condition is functional?

Can someone explain how Carson became an august voice in the Long Covid space? It’s unnerving
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He's not that I can see. Just the same psychosomatic charlatans doing their usual thing, like Ariel said, abusing the power vacuum. There is still no one actually responsible for any of this, while the quacks are demanding it. That's how it usually went to the quacks, it's a playbook that works by default of there being no leadership or accountability for any of this.
 
Indeed. But this is what she supports.
Suggest you do a search for ‘long Covid biopsychosocial model’. Tons of stuff. I’ll be interested to see what you write.
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Obviously the BPS attempts at psychologizing Long Covid thread is the best source for early published material, but it features herself and some figures she respects. Few papers, though. Initially it was op-eds and opinion threads. Greenhalgh is asking for papers, but the claims began before any such paper. Including by the likes of Carson. Because they are made without evidence for the same reasons they're made about us.
 
Lots of good answers that should prompt self-reflection. Not holding my breath.
Researching ME/CFS may help you understand the current dangerously flawed approach to Long Covid. The people in that community have been dismissed and subjected to gaslighting from medical professionals for decades.
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