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Covid-19 vaccines and vaccinations

Discussion in 'Epidemics (including Covid-19)' started by hinterland, Dec 3, 2020.

  1. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    You need a different figure, which at the moment I don't think anyone has. I think the figures so far are for preventing overt clinical disease. We need a figure for reduction in death rate and another for ruction in long term incapacity. Those figures would presumably need about 100 times as much data as needed to get reliable figures for the first endpoint (if mortality in overt disease is ~1%). No doubt it will be available in the coming months.
     
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  2. Leila

    Leila Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That's how I understand the news, too. The studies detected how many people developed symptoms. Not infection or transmission.

    So far I guess that means a vaccine would significantly reduce hospital admissions and deaths if enough people have taken it?

    Doesn't necessarily mean those people getting it early can move freely right away (that's the main motivation I hear from healthy people to take it).
     
  3. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I would imagine that among the first people to get the vaccine would probably be the people giving the vaccine (granting that it seems to take 4 weeks to reach full effectiveness.) That would protect both the people giving the vaccine and the people they're giving it to. The risk of transmission would then come from the other people waiting to get the vaccine.

    Where I am, there's outdoor "drive-thru" testing for covid, which, I assume, reduces the chances of transmission from others and it seems like a viable way to deliver the vaccine. Inclement weather may not make that practical everywhere, and it doesn't take into account those without cars.

    Still, if it's all by appointment and people are given, say, a 15 minute window for arrival, and everyone is wearing a mask, it could be less dangerous than going through the checkout line at a grocery store (which I suppose is very low but not absolutely zero risk).

    This is just a guess as to how they will proceed in my area. There have been drive-thru vaccination clinics for the flu. One aspect of these is that you have to wait in the clinic area for 15 minutes after getting the shot. That's probably to make sure that you don't have a bad reaction to the shot, like vasovagal syncope.


    This what testing looks like where I live in Southern California. I have a feeling mass vaccinations will probably be similar (as opposed to taking place at a grocery store/pharmacy), at least initially.

    testing.jpg
     
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  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm definitely waiting until we know it's safe for us. I have no idea how we can tell if it's safe for us since no one will do the research. So I'll just wait as long as it makes sense, probably having to judge from those who can't forego getting the vaccine. I'm fully house-bound anyway, not like odds of getting are high.
     
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  5. Wits_End

    Wits_End Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Interesting. My caree's surgery had a flu team who were going around vaccinating all the housebound people - she was done a couple of days ago - so it's clearly not a nationwide uniform policy.
     
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  6. Wits_End

    Wits_End Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I asked in the main Covid thread (https://www.s4me.info/threads/the-b...vaccines-treatments.14022/page-49#post-306391) about the report that the UK Government has indemnified Pfizer et al against any adverse effects which might arise, because it made me rather concerned that we might be getting a bit premature and/or that the vaccine might not be as reliable/safe etc. as we might assume. OTOH, perhaps it's standard practice for a vaccine development of this type? I just don't know. I just rather got the feeling that Pfizer knew they had our government over a barrel because they felt they had to get in fast, and were profiting from the situation.
     
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  7. Samuel

    Samuel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    rant that is going to worsen my health:


    i think pwme need to be part of the equation.

    scientists figured out long ago about hiv/aids and vaccines and antiretroviral doses. populations get studied in vaccine development and implementation.

    m.e. needs to be studied (e.g. by post-vaccination monitoring) too. not a token study of only one course type, severity level, or set of comorbidities. but large n to capture edge cases. on all vaccine candidates. wherever ethical and possible.


    why? because: this disease is diverse, has more unknowns than most serious diseases, continues to be the target of ignorance and persecution (which leads to more risk in implementation), plenty of immune/cytokine concerns, frequent viral trigger, pwme likely to have to make decisions on their own, and it could be relevant to long covid.

    if doctors won't care or don't really know which vaccine to give to pwme, when to give them, when to take risks, and so on, that is not ok. i do not think it is unreasonable to demand science.


    instead of the current status of every pwme having to take existential risks using decisions made with fogged brains based on insufficient science every time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
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  8. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    it is not recommended to get a vaccine if you have an active infection, even if it’s a cold.
     
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  9. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I always thought that too, but nowadays when I ask the person giving the vaccine to clarify, I'm always told it need only be avoided with a virus if you have a fever. I usually do have some viral-type symptoms, so I ask at the 'flu clinic every year in case the advice has changed!

    Having said that, even when it did transpire that I was starting with a cold rather than just the usual ME symptoms, I've never had a bad reaction.
     
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  10. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I wouldn't expect it to be mandatory - why? because the efficacy is high (possibly 95%) and people who are vulnerable, and get vaccinated, may not get life threatening illness (necessitating ICU) --- so I wouldn't see a case for mandatory vaccination. If efficacy was low; therefore R=1 (or more), i.e. outbreaks would be maintained, then there would be a case for mandatory vaccination.

    I know a medical doctor who'd like to see the first couple of million people vaccinated before he is - but doctors will be vaccinated early on

    @Jonathan Edwards mentioned the high number of frontline medical staff who've had coronavirus - will they be vaccinated?

    Re "roadblocks" is New Zealand's policy of requiring (unvaccinated) visitors to quarantine unreasonable? Surely it's part of protecting their population --- they have been very successful!
     
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  11. TrixieStix

    TrixieStix Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    As someone with serious autoimmune disease (I take multiple immune suppressant medications) I have been 'isolating' insofar as I am not engaging in any indoor socializing, but I still go to the grocery store regularly, I go to doctor appointments, get my blood drawn at the hospital regularly, and I recently got a flu vaccine at my pharmacy.

    In my city I have not heard of any instances where someone became infected with SARS-Cov-2 as a result of grocery shopping, going to the doctor for an appointment, or getting a vaccine at the pharmacy. (Where I live masks are required indoors).

    One worry I have in terms of future Covid-19 vaccine initiatives is possible crowding of people into the place (pharmacy, grocery store, doctor office, etc) where the vaccine it being given. Currently for example my small pharmacy never has more than a couple people inside it at any given time so it's easy to stay distanced from everyone. When I got my flu vaccine the pharmacist was in very close proximity to me for a maximum of 2 minutes or less.

    It would be awesome if public health authorities could do the vaccines outdoors in a tent (rainy where I live) in a place with a large parking lot and have people wait in their cars. When it's your turn they call your cell phone and you know it's your turn to head to the tent. That way you would avoid a crowded indoor line of people. But alas I'm not in charge ;)
     
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  12. TrixieStix

    TrixieStix Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Someone I follow on Twitter just posted this link to a UK government document (pdf) outlining the authorization, instructions for injection (with graphics), special warnings, etc for the Pfizer mRNA vaccine (aka: vaccine BNT162b2). It's full of information.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/940565/Information_for_Healthcare_Professionals_on_Pfizer_BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine.pdf

    a few examples from the document...

    "Individuals may not be protected until at least 7 days after their second dose of the vaccine."

    "COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 is administered intramuscularly after dilution as a series of two doses 21 days apart."

    "Immunocompromised persons, including individuals receiving immunosuppressant therapy, may have a diminished immune response to the vaccine. No data are available about concomitant use of immunosuppressants."

    "The most frequent adverse reactions in participants 16 years of age and older were pain at the injection site (> 80%), fatigue (> 60%), headache (> 50%), myalgia (> 30%), chills (> 30%), arthralgia (> 20%) and pyrexia (> 10%) and were usually mild or moderate in intensity and resolved within a few days after vaccination."

    "The safety and efficacy of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2in children under 16 years of age have not yet been established."

    "The administration of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 should be postponed in individuals suffering from acute severe febrile illness."

    "COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 is not recommended during pregnancy. For women of childbearing age, pregnancy should be excluded before vaccination. In addition, women of childbearing age should be advised to avoid pregnancy for at least 2 months after their second dose."
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
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  13. MeSci

    MeSci Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    No good if you neither have a car nor a cellphone!
     
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  14. glennthefrog

    glennthefrog Established Member

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    I wonder the same thing, as I already had covid and it worsened my ME symptoms for at least 40 days
     
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  15. glennthefrog

    glennthefrog Established Member

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    Please don't forget that even if he is vaccinated he could bring the virus home in his clothes, hands, hair, shoes, etc. You should take care of that too
     
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  16. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Surely the point with a vaccine is that it provokes the immune response but not the symptoms of the disease. So someone who would have bad or prolonged symptoms when the get the disease itself, normally only gets very mild or no symptoms to a vaccine for the same disease.
     
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  17. Andy

    Andy Committee Member (& Outreach when energy allows)

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    Thanks to those who addressed my 'dilemma' that I described in the opening post, I appreciate the input.
     
  18. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have a couple of diagnosed autoimmune disorders, yet I still receive the flu vaccination every year and have never had any issues with it.
     
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  19. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    They don't know yet whether the people who have the vaccine who later come into contact with the covid-19 virus will be able to pass the virus along to other people or not. It's still possible that your husband could infect you with the virus even if he has immunity from the vaccine.
     
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  20. MeSci

    MeSci Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Do you get other infectious illnesses? I don't seem to have for many years, except possible COVID in February-March (mainly a gout-like toe infection). That lasted a month. Or else I just get things mildly for a couple of days.
     
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