Eccentric medium spiny neuron (eMSN)

If this theory is correct, what does it mean for treatment prospects? Seems like a challenging neurological problem to solve.
I am wondering about a possible application of ketamine in ME/CFS, given what we discovered in the last months.

There is an ongoing trial of IV ketamine in Long COVID (R).

While ketamine has been approved for treatment resistant depression, it has shown some anti-fatigue properties in a few studies on other conditions, independent of its effect on mood (R, R, R).
 
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I am wondering about a possible application of ketamine in ME/CFS, given what we discovered in the last months.

There is an ongoing trial of IV ketamine in Long COVID (R).

While ketamine has been approved for treatment resistant depression, it has shown some anti-fatigue properties in a few studies on other conditions, independent of its effect on mood (R, R, R).

Know quite a few people who have tried ket, without great success.
 
I am wondering about a possible application of ketamine in ME/CFS, given what we discovered in the last months.

There is an ongoing trial of IV ketamine in Long COVID (R).

While ketamine has been approved for treatment resistant depression, it has shown some anti-fatigue properties in a few studies on other conditions, independent of its effect on mood (R, R, R).
Ketamine almost kills me.
My orthastic intolerance was crazy (POT).
It was a disaster. Ok it s my personnal experience but im not the only one.
 
What a fascinating discussion. Thank you to everyone engaging -- including those questioning the 'neuronal-signalling-most-probably-is-the-unifying-culprit' hypothesis. Your questions are all very helpful.

What I am wondering is, if immune cells were involved in some way without necessarily being abnormal, what would that mean for pwME/CFS with comorbidities that involve relevant parts of the immune system; e.g. atopic conditions severe enough to bring with them siginificantly altered immune cell signalling in local tissues? (So immune cells sending other signals than in pwME/CFS without these comorbidities).

Would there be subgroups with slyightly distinct pathomechanisms? Could studying subgroups of pwME/CFS with comorbidities that have a known pathomechanism involving relevant parts of the immune system in any way help giving a clue to what's going wrong on the neuronal side?

Only able to skim and don't understand everything I skimmed so apologies if my question doesn't make sense.
 
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e.g. atopic conditions severe enough to bring with them siginificantly altered immune cell signalling in local tissues? (So immune cells sending other signals than in pwME/CFS without these comorbidities).

I don't think we have any reliable evidence for atopy being any different or more common in people with ME/CFS, despite it being a popular meme in the past.
 
This may be irrelevant!

Re rhinitis, postnasal drip,cough, sneezing.

On another thread it has been mentioned that myalgia could be caused by normal muscle metabolites triggering an abnormal neural signal.

Could the above symptoms be something similar?

Could normal/ low levels of irritants e.g. dust, pollen,chemicals trigger abnormal neural signaling which results in a normal protective immune mechanism of rhinitis or mechanical cough reflex?

I used to have rhinitis with migraine and always assumed that the trigeminal nerve was involved.

There is also the photic sneeze reflex, sneezing in direct sunlight.


In addition there was a paper a few years ago about mucus in ME/ CFS being different to healthy controls, so is our nasal mucosa less well protected from irritants? The authors proposed that it caused ‘chronic inflammation”??

 
I don't think we have any reliable evidence for atopy being any different or more common in people with ME/CFS, despite it being a popular meme in the past.
Yes but I thought it's so common in the general population that a significant number of pwME/CFS must be affected, too, just not good at calculating ATM.

(Perhaps the term comorbidity is misleading in this context -- I mean just chronic illness that is common enough in the general population so that a sufficiently large number of pwME could form subgroups, /even if the pathomechanisms of both illnesses developed independently from each other -- tehy still could interfer with each other in some way giving a clue? -- Edit: Or maybe just give a hint to what mos probably is NOT involved? ).

Maybe on a global scale that would also apply to some autoimmune conditions? There should be a couple of people with autoimmune conditions that also happen to get ME/CFS?
 
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You - it seems to me - keep reducing our pathology to some kind of mistake of perception. Er, a magical signaling error of some sort which suggests to me we are not really sick, we just think we are due to that weird signaling issue?
I think it's a matter of the definition of "sick". If you're suffering sever flu symptoms, but your immune system isn't actively fighting a virus, I consider that still being "sick". It doesn't matter if the root cause is a brain cell connecting to the wrong other brain cell, rather than measurable change in some blood factor, it's still a physical malfunction that results in loss of functioning and enjoyment of life. I can imagine a computer malfunction because two signal lines are positioned in such a way that when a specific pattern of signals occur, it's enough to flip a bit unintentionally. None of the physical components are defective, but the problem is a combination of factors that wasn't anticipated and taken into account. ME could involve that sort of problem: individual control subsystems are all working as evolution intended, but the interactions of them are causing problems. Maybe those subsystems evolved with plenty of microbial infections, and the reduction of those in modern society causes the immune system to interact in unanticipated ways, or maybe there's a brain circuit that depends on those early immune activations and it fails in ways not weeded out by evolution.

To me, being sick from a signalling malfunction is as valid as being sick from a viral infection.
 
There are other examples that are known to be brain problems, even if we are not any further forward than ME/XCFS in knowing exactly what is going on. My wife's reaction to malarone is always in my mind. She ended up unable to move or eat, like someone with severe ME/CFS but in a different way.
I ask this with trepidation but do you think it is conceivable that ECT could prove be an effective treatment? My uneducated guess is that it would be inappropriate with a high risk of harm but I would be interested to know if you or others feel that it could be ruled out if some type of faulty brain signalling was found to be the primary cause.
 
To me, being sick from a signalling malfunction is as valid as being sick from a viral infection.
As you point out, definitions matter. But I think it is equally important to how it is framed. You can share the same symptoms, but any physical limitations - in the signalling scenario - would just be an error in perception, e.g. you only think you are limited to 50 steps a day, but in reality you can walk pretty much as premorbid days.

I'm sorry. I am struggling not only with concepts these days, but with word choice and placement.

I am sure I am missing something. I will not derail this fascinating thread any further.
 
You can share the same symptoms, but any physical limitations - in the signalling scenario - would just be an error in perception, e.g. you only think you are limited to 50 steps a day, but in reality you can walk pretty much as premorbid days.
I can accept that ME might be perception errors. On days when I feel really crappy, I still expect that my legs could manage a 40 km bike ride ... I'd just feel crappy the entire ride. I don't believe that my ME has resulted in muscle or ATP production limitations, so perception errors seem a reasonable hypothesis. It's not a psychological error, it might be some physical or chemical error in some brain cells, and that's an important point to make.
 
I ask this with trepidation but do you think it is conceivable that ECT could prove be an effective treatment? My uneducated guess is that it would be inappropriate with a high risk of harm but I would be interested to know if you or others feel that it could be ruled out if some type of faulty brain signalling was found to be the primary cause.
I once read an article about e c t in which people who had undergone it complained of being left with chronic health issues that sounded similar to mecfs
 
I ask this with trepidation but do you think it is conceivable that ECT could prove be an effective treatment? My uneducated guess is that it would be inappropriate with a high risk of harm but I would be interested to know if you or others feel that it could be ruled out if some type of faulty brain signalling was found to be the primary cause.

People manage to recover and/or improve pretty well without it, so I'd be surprised?
 
Dopamine release is also triggered by food consumption such as having chocolate , social interactions and by accomplishing goals. What makes exercise-derived dopamine being the culprit?
I don't necessarily want to over-index on exercise and dopamine. But my understanding is that there are certain activities and experiences that trigger more brain reorganization than others, and research has been particularly interested in the changes following exercise (eg. there are about a million papers like this, trying to tease out the process). Where dopamine comes in for me is that it seems to be used in a variety of ways by the brain to say we need to do an adjustment *here* *now*. This came in part from reading random interesting papers on brain development, and also from the Parkinson's literature. The Parkinson's lit seems to be rife with the same kind of issues ours is, so I don't really want to claim anything too solid until I've looked more carefully.
 
I don't necessarily want to over-index on exercise and dopamine. But my understanding is that there are certain activities and experiences that trigger more brain reorganization than others, and research has been particularly interested in the changes following exercise (eg. there are about a million papers like this, trying to tease out the process).

It would be interesting to do the same studies on people doing intensive motor learning without a great deal of exertion, wouldn't it, to get exercise out of the way as a (potentially huge) confounder. There must be plenty of people learning to drive a car or play a musical instrument.
 
It's more that it might not adequately address what people experience in relapses.
And does this theory, like CBT and LP/neuroplasticity, predict that 'hurt does not mean harm' ie. symptoms might exacerbate, but nothing is really lost?
Simon I hope you don't mind if I jump in and offer some (probably unsatisfying) ideas, because I've been pondering the same question about relapses and damage and have some nebulous thoughts.

One thing I picked up from articles like this is that in the brain it might be more relevant to think about robustness of the network rather than damage. He's talking about developmental neurological disorders in the article but I think the same could apply to neurological diseases resulting from some kind of insult:
The complexity of the [circuitry of the brain] as a whole results in buffering of this noise to give a reproducible developmental outcome; in engineering terms the system is “robust”. This robustness is due not only to molecular redundancy, but also to the involvement of multiple parallel pathways at each “choice point” (“degeneracy”). Removal or alteration of many components individually may thus have little effect but will tend to sensitize the system to alterations in other components or to environmental stresses.

So for ME/CFS, there could be some underlying worsening change that is weakening some (yet to be defined) measure of robustness. Laid over that, our actual level of function and severity of symptoms could depend on other variables that may allow the brain to compensate at a given time, but the underlying problem remains (and perhaps worsens).

My hobby horse of Parkinson's could maybe get us halfway to an example (being a loss of robustness that happens to be via literal damage). A fact you see a lot is that "By the time motor symptoms appear, 50–80% of all dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra have degenerated." (wiki) This seems incredible to me, but it would seem to align with animal experiments where researchers attacked the same neurons with toxic MPTP exposure and found the mice were able to recover back to a normal apparently symptom-free phenotype (despite lacking a similar fraction of these neurons). Presumably these mice would be more susceptible to future exposures, but in the meantime they seem to be able to compensate.

I found another interesting example of the brain having an underlying state it can temporarily deviate away from here:
Together, these findings suggest that adult cortical spine density is regulated around a stable setpoint, while spine turnover enables rewiring during learning through loss and gain of specific connections.41,42,43 Intriguingly, prolonged exposure to enriched environments (EEs) can enhance spine density and dynamics,44,45,46,47 but because this enhancement does not persist beyond return to standard housing,44 it is not clear whether enrichment can persistently modify synaptic setpoints or exactly which features drive these changes. We recently found that prey capture learning during the [critical developmental period] can reset firing rate setpoints in V1,48 raising the possibility that homeostatic brakes on synapse density might also be persistently modifiable by active vision-dependent learning during the visual system [critical developmental period].
If ME/CFS involves a loss of synaptic density, as that long covid abstract suggested, maybe this sort of mechanism could be part of why a ME/CFS person who's doing particularly well is sometimes able to start working and get along well enough for a bit before they relapse.

These are both examples where the loss of robustness comes from a pretty simple literal loss of neurons or synapses. But you could imagine that a network could equally lose robustness in a way that's less obvious in terms of how we're currently looking at it, but where the 'damage' could become clear after something analogous to a change in coordinate system.
 
research has been particularly interested in the changes following exercise (eg. there are about a million papers like this, trying to tease out the process).

"Exercise is known to benefit motor skill learning in health and neurological disease. Evidence from brain stimulation, genotyping, and Parkinson's disease studies converge to suggest that the dopamine D2 receptor, and shifts in the cortical excitation and inhibition (E:I) balance, are prime candidates for the drivers of exercise-enhanced motor learning"

That’s exactly it. Except that for us, it ruins everything. All our skills have gone, and the more we practise, the more it falls apart.
 
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