Covid-19 vaccines and vaccinations

[Jonathan Edwards]

If a vaccine is deemed 90% effective say, what does that then mean for the other 10%? Within that group do they then have the same probability of serious harm / death as anyone else? i.e. Would it mean that vaccinated people would be 10x less likely to come to serious harm, assuming my 90% effectiveness figure?

Or is it that the vaccinated-but-unprotected people, by implication, have different predispositions to the consequences of infection?

You need a different figure, which at the moment I don't think anyone has. I think the figures so far are for preventing overt clinical disease. We need a figure for reduction in death rate and another for ruction in long term incapacity. Those figures would presumably need about 100 times as much data as needed to get reliable figures for the first endpoint (if mortality in overt disease is ~1%). No doubt it will be available in the coming months.

 

[Leila]

I have zero knowledge in the field of immunology so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but I think I have read they still haven’t established - though they are hopeful it will - whether people who have the vaccine still could possibly transmit the virus if they are exposed to it?

That's how I understand the news, too. The studies detected how many people developed symptoms. Not infection or transmission.

So far I guess that means a vaccine would significantly reduce hospital admissions and deaths if enough people have taken it?

Doesn't necessarily mean those people getting it early can move freely right away (that's the main motivation I hear from healthy people to take it).

 

[Forbin]

I would imagine that among the first people to get the vaccine would probably be the people giving the vaccine (granting that it seems to take 4 weeks to reach full effectiveness.) That would protect both the people giving the vaccine and the people they're giving it to. The risk of transmission would then come from the other people waiting to get the vaccine.

Where I am, there's outdoor "drive-thru" testing for covid, which, I assume, reduces the chances of transmission from others and it seems like a viable way to deliver the vaccine. Inclement weather may not make that practical everywhere, and it doesn't take into account those without cars.

Still, if it's all by appointment and people are given, say, a 15 minute window for arrival, and everyone is wearing a mask, it could be less dangerous than going through the checkout line at a grocery store (which I suppose is very low but not absolutely zero risk).

This is just a guess as to how they will proceed in my area. There have been drive-thru vaccination clinics for the flu. One aspect of these is that you have to wait in the clinic area for 15 minutes after getting the shot. That's probably to make sure that you don't have a bad reaction to the shot, like vasovagal syncope.


This what testing looks like where I live in Southern California. I have a feeling mass vaccinations will probably be similar (as opposed to taking place at a grocery store/pharmacy), at least initially.

 

[rvallee]

I'm definitely waiting until we know it's safe for us. I have no idea how we can tell if it's safe for us since no one will do the research. So I'll just wait as long as it makes sense, probably having to judge from those who can't forego getting the vaccine. I'm fully house-bound anyway, not like odds of getting are high.

 

[Wits_End]

I'm in my 70's and turned down a recent invitation to go to the GP practice for my annual flu vaccination. In the last few years my daughter and I, being housebound, had our flu vaccinations done at home, but, unsurprisingly they are not doing that this year at all. It was go to the surgery or nothing.

Interesting. My caree's surgery had a flu team who were going around vaccinating all the housebound people - she was done a couple of days ago - so it's clearly not a nationwide uniform policy.

 

[Wits_End]

I'm not anti-vaccine, but I will wait after watching "Vaccin, la guerre secrète" last night. They brought up the Dengue vaccine fiasco in the Philippines that brought criminal charges (reckless imprudence resulting in homicide) against a prominent pediatrician and medical researcher(Rose Capeding) who introduced Dengvaxia prematurely 2017.

I asked in the main Covid thread (https://www.s4me.info/threads/the-b...vaccines-treatments.14022/page-49#post-306391) about the report that the UK Government has indemnified Pfizer et al against any adverse effects which might arise, because it made me rather concerned that we might be getting a bit premature and/or that the vaccine might not be as reliable/safe etc. as we might assume. OTOH, perhaps it's standard practice for a vaccine development of this type? I just don't know. I just rather got the feeling that Pfizer knew they had our government over a barrel because they felt they had to get in fast, and were profiting from the situation.

 

[Samuel]

rant that is going to worsen my health:


i think pwme need to be part of the equation.

scientists figured out long ago about hiv/aids and vaccines and antiretroviral doses. populations get studied in vaccine development and implementation.

m.e. needs to be studied (e.g. by post-vaccination monitoring) too. not a token study of only one course type, severity level, or set of comorbidities. but large n to capture edge cases. on all vaccine candidates. wherever ethical and possible.


why? because: this disease is diverse, has more unknowns than most serious diseases, continues to be the target of ignorance and persecution (which leads to more risk in implementation), plenty of immune/cytokine concerns, frequent viral trigger, pwme likely to have to make decisions on their own, and it could be relevant to long covid.

if doctors won't care or don't really know which vaccine to give to pwme, when to give them, when to take risks, and so on, that is not ok. i do not think it is unreasonable to demand science.


instead of the current status of every pwme having to take existential risks using decisions made with fogged brains based on insufficient science every time.

 

[Milo]

I have no knowledge about vaccines, could it be dangerous to take if already having had SarsCov2?

I vaguely remember some discussion about a 2nd infection in some viruses being dangerous/worse than the 1st one.

I know that a vaccine isn't the same as an infection but it causes a similiar immune response, doesn't it?

it is not recommended to get a vaccine if you have an active infection, even if it’s a cold.

 

[Kitty]

it is not recommended to get a vaccine if you have an active infection, even if it’s a cold.

I always thought that too, but nowadays when I ask the person giving the vaccine to clarify, I'm always told it need only be avoided with a virus if you have a fever. I usually do have some viral-type symptoms, so I ask at the 'flu clinic every year in case the advice has changed!

Having said that, even when it did transpire that I was starting with a cold rather than just the usual ME symptoms, I've never had a bad reaction.

 

[FMMM1]

I thought that everyone was going to be forced to get the vaccination eventually. The UK government keeps saying that vaccination won't be mandatory, but I simply don't believe that will last. Alternatively, the difficulties and roadblocks put in the way of people who don't get vaccinated will be so extreme that it might as well be mandatory.

I wouldn't expect it to be mandatory - why? because the efficacy is high (possibly 95%) and people who are vulnerable, and get vaccinated, may not get life threatening illness (necessitating ICU) --- so I wouldn't see a case for mandatory vaccination. If efficacy was low; therefore R=1 (or more), i.e. outbreaks would be maintained, then there would be a case for mandatory vaccination.

I know a medical doctor who'd like to see the first couple of million people vaccinated before he is - but doctors will be vaccinated early on

@Jonathan Edwards mentioned the high number of frontline medical staff who've had coronavirus - will they be vaccinated?

Re "roadblocks" is New Zealand's policy of requiring (unvaccinated) visitors to quarantine unreasonable? Surely it's part of protecting their population --- they have been very successful!

 

[TrixieStix]

So what if, during any vaccinations, my MIL or my wife catch Covid due to being exposed getting to, and in, the clinical situation?

As someone with serious autoimmune disease (I take multiple immune suppressant medications) I have been 'isolating' insofar as I am not engaging in any indoor socializing, but I still go to the grocery store regularly, I go to doctor appointments, get my blood drawn at the hospital regularly, and I recently got a flu vaccine at my pharmacy.

In my city I have not heard of any instances where someone became infected with SARS-Cov-2 as a result of grocery shopping, going to the doctor for an appointment, or getting a vaccine at the pharmacy. (Where I live masks are required indoors).

One worry I have in terms of future Covid-19 vaccine initiatives is possible crowding of people into the place (pharmacy, grocery store, doctor office, etc) where the vaccine it being given. Currently for example my small pharmacy never has more than a couple people inside it at any given time so it's easy to stay distanced from everyone. When I got my flu vaccine the pharmacist was in very close proximity to me for a maximum of 2 minutes or less.

It would be awesome if public health authorities could do the vaccines outdoors in a tent (rainy where I live) in a place with a large parking lot and have people wait in their cars. When it's your turn they call your cell phone and you know it's your turn to head to the tent. That way you would avoid a crowded indoor line of people. But alas I'm not in charge

 

[TrixieStix]

Someone I follow on Twitter just posted this link to a UK government document (pdf) outlining the authorization, instructions for injection (with graphics), special warnings, etc for the Pfizer mRNA vaccine (aka: vaccine BNT162b2). It's full of information.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/940565/Information_for_Healthcare_Professionals_on_Pfizer_BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine.pdf

a few examples from the document...

"Individuals may not be protected until at least 7 days after their second dose of the vaccine."

"COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 is administered intramuscularly after dilution as a series of two doses 21 days apart."

"Immunocompromised persons, including individuals receiving immunosuppressant therapy, may have a diminished immune response to the vaccine. No data are available about concomitant use of immunosuppressants."

"The most frequent adverse reactions in participants 16 years of age and older were pain at the injection site (> 80%), fatigue (> 60%), headache (> 50%), myalgia (> 30%), chills (> 30%), arthralgia (> 20%) and pyrexia (> 10%) and were usually mild or moderate in intensity and resolved within a few days after vaccination."

"The safety and efficacy of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2in children under 16 years of age have not yet been established."

"The administration of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 should be postponed in individuals suffering from acute severe febrile illness."

"COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 is not recommended during pregnancy. For women of childbearing age, pregnancy should be excluded before vaccination. In addition, women of childbearing age should be advised to avoid pregnancy for at least 2 months after their second dose."

 

[MeSci]

It would be awesome if public health authorities could do the vaccines outdoors in a tent (rainy where I live) in a place with a large parking lot and have people wait in their cars. When it's your turn they call your cell phone and you know it's your turn to head to the tent.

No good if you neither have a car nor a cellphone!

 

[glennthefrog]

I have no knowledge about vaccines, could it be dangerous to take if already having had SarsCov2?

I vaguely remember some discussion about a 2nd infection in some viruses being dangerous/worse than the 1st one.

I know that a vaccine isn't the same as an infection but it causes a similiar immune response, doesn't it?

I wonder the same thing, as I already had covid and it worsened my ME symptoms for at least 40 days

 

[glennthefrog]

With the poor understanding of immune effects with ME my view has been to avoid vaccinations. I don't see too many people. My healthy early 60's husband was offered a free flu jab. I answered a questionnaire the other day on this, ticked the Neurological illness option and it wasn't sure that I should be offered a free flu jab.

I haven't caught so much as a sniffle in over 10 years and had assumed my immune system was overactive. A positive so I thought, apart from the 'flare' up I experience from any exposure. That said Michael Van Elzakker suggests that not having an illness response doesn't mean you are immune. In fact you may not be producing the reaction that's meant to fight a virus. This not knowing for sure makes me cautious.

The plan is that my husband will have the vaccines to protect me as he's the most likely vector to me and if infected he could give me a bigger initial viral load than anyone else. It's a risk him going to the surgery but it's just twice. It will give him more freedom and me more peace of mind.

I'm curious to know if the pwME who have caught Covid 19 are the overimmune/underimmune self reporters or it didn't make a difference.

Please don't forget that even if he is vaccinated he could bring the virus home in his clothes, hands, hair, shoes, etc. You should take care of that too

 

[Trish]

I wonder the same thing, as I already had covid and it worsened my ME symptoms for at least 40 days

Surely the point with a vaccine is that it provokes the immune response but not the symptoms of the disease. So someone who would have bad or prolonged symptoms when the get the disease itself, normally only gets very mild or no symptoms to a vaccine for the same disease.

 

[Andy]

Thanks to those who addressed my 'dilemma' that I described in the opening post, I appreciate the input.

 

[TigerLilea]

I'm not keen on any vaccinations since getting ME, which I am fairly sure in my case is autoimmune.

I have a couple of diagnosed autoimmune disorders, yet I still receive the flu vaccination every year and have never had any issues with it.

 

[TigerLilea]

The plan is that my husband will have the vaccines to protect me as he's the most likely vector to me and if infected he could give me a bigger initial viral load than anyone else. It's a risk him going to the surgery but it's just twice. It will give him more freedom and me more peace of mind.

They don't know yet whether the people who have the vaccine who later come into contact with the covid-19 virus will be able to pass the virus along to other people or not. It's still possible that your husband could infect you with the virus even if he has immunity from the vaccine.

 

[MeSci]

I have a couple of diagnosed autoimmune disorders, yet I still receive the flu vaccination every year and have never had any issues with it.

Do you get other infectious illnesses? I don't seem to have for many years, except possible COVID in February-March (mainly a gout-like toe infection). That lasted a month. Or else I just get things mildly for a couple of days.