Covid-19 vaccines and vaccinations

[hibiscuswahine]

The Ministry of Health in NZ said this recently about a plan to do a trial of fractionated doses of Pfizer (so four smaller doses instead of two) in NZ on an interested ME group. Our main ME clinician said there was some evidence of reduced reactogenicity with fractionated doses but can not provide us with any evidence of this or the source of information so pwME can consider this information for themselves.

The spokesperson also questioned whether fractionated dosing would add to risks faced by those with pre-existing conditions.

"There is no current evidence that having four vaccinations will reduce side effects to vaccination. Indeed, it may increase the risk of side effects since the reactogenicity (which is the expected symptoms you get from your immune system such as headaches, fevers, flu-like symptoms) is expected to increase with each dose," she said.

"There is no current information on what dose interval would work but it is evident that the time to complete a four-dose programme will be longer than a two-dose programme, meaning that this vulnerable group of people would be at risk of Covid-19 infection for longer."

So from their view each dose increases reactogenicity and side effects.

However our IMAC (immunisation committee) is in the process of working with an immunologist at Auckland University to get ethical approval and funding for a trial. There is no guarantee this will go ahead.

This will most likely be for the Pfizer vaccine as that is the preferred vaccine here. Unclear if AZ might be included as it has only just become available as an option for NZ citizens.

 

[TigerLilea]

Does that make any sense tho?

Surely any reaction would be linked to something on the vaccine, so what type is likely to matter.

I agree that possibly the amount may not make a difference, but can't see how what it was wouldn't.

According to one doctor I spoke to it is the immune system that is the issue, not the vaccine.

 

[hibiscuswahine]

According to one doctor I spoke to it is the immune system that is the issue, not the vaccine.

I was wondering what was that doctor’s take on it? And what is their specialty?

Problem is they haven’t worked out a consistent mechanism for all people with ME/CFS, or the subtypes, eg.MCAS etc or other genetic vulnerabilities or illnesses within each individual that alter the immune system. Just one big catch 22 of unknown unknowns.

 

[Snow Leopard]

According to one doctor I spoke to it is the immune system that is the issue, not the vaccine.

What does that even mean? I find it noteworthy that you mentioned people being given such advice by *neurologists*, rather than immunologists. The former tend to have a very superficial understanding of the immune system.

 

[Leila]

Merged thread

Hope this is the right place to ask..

We're being recommended to get a Covid Booster shot 6 months after the 2nd jab.

Do you guys have any data or opinions on how this help reduce risk of infection or disease (symptoms) in young people?

I know antibodies drop but from what I understand boosters mainly protect older people from sickness as well as reduce transmissability alltogether.

Other than mitigating the epidemic, is it increasing my own protection in any way at age 35?

Ive heard experts saying different things.

 

[Simbindi]

I don't know, but my eldest is a teacher in a secondary school (ages 11-16) and a lot of the staff were getting Covid in the autumn despite having had 2 shots earlier in the year. So my daughter (who is in her early 30s) took the offer of a booster when it came up about a month ago. So far she doesn't appear to have had Covid (as a teacher she gets regular lateral flow tests) despite getting other transmissible infections, such as colds and tonsillitis.

 

[CRG]

Other than mitigating the epidemic, is it increasing my own protection in any way at age 35?

Simple answer is Yes. There have been trials for all the booster vaccines being used in the UK - link here is for the BNT162b2 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2113468

 

[Dom]

I think it's dead on that the immune system is the problem. I'm high as a kite for days after my covid vaccines. Probably 4 or 5 days. That's not normal. Then I gradually go downhill assuming I don't crash over 2 weeks.

By that point I get the distinct sense lots of things have reactivated and it takes me 2 months to fix that. The other issue being what it does to the patient's blood. Dr Yaeger has seen this but she's not the only one. I think it takes 4 weeks just to get the blood back to normal and stop the red blood cells clotting to one another.

So in my case that process seems to take 2 to 3 months. But I take £260 worth of supplements every month and I do use all of them and they all do slightly different things. Plus I've improved massively on them.

I do still think a smaller dose might confer a lower immune response. However they made it quite clear that the moderna half dose boosts the immune system the same as the full dose. So that's probably wrong.

Guess there's no way round it. Just gotta get on. Totally understand those severe patients who don't go there there.

 

[TigerLilea]

What does that even mean? I find it noteworthy that you mentioned people being given such advice by *neurologists*, rather than immunologists. The former tend to have a very superficial understanding of the immune system.

The people seeing the neurologists have developed neuropathy since having the covid vaccine(s). As to what my comment meant, some doctors believe that the vaccine has revved up our immune systems causing the adverse reactions that are being seen.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Other than mitigating the epidemic, is it increasing my own protection in any way at age 35?

We were talking to a young couple who are local friends this weekend. They are around 35. They got Covid despite to vaccinations and they said it was truly awful. OK they are alive, but not something they would want again.

 

[Barry]

We were talking to a young couple who are local friends this weekend. They are around 35. They got Covid despite to vaccinations and they said it was truly awful. OK they are alive, but not something they would want again.

Same with a chap at my work, similar age. Was OK within a week, but pretty awful while he had it, and like nothing else he'd ever experienced. Two jabs.

 

[Leila]

Simple answer is Yes. There have been trials for all the booster vaccines being used in the UK - link here is for the BNT162b2 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2113468

Could you dumb that down for me? I understand a third jab gives people my age group higher neutralization titers. But does that equal less symptoms in case of breakthrough infections? Less likelihood of LongCovid?

@Jonathan Edwards indeed does not sound good. Do you think further boosters will be necessary?

 

[Ariel]

My understanding is that it boots your protection from infection (and symptomatic covid) significantly. This may, in turn, wane again, but the answer is yes. This wasn't just a finding in older people.

 

[Kitty]

But does that equal less symptoms in case of breakthrough infections? Less likelihood of LongCovid?

I'm not convinced anyone really knows, especially given the new variants that are going to keep popping up.

My decision, given that I've never had a really bad vaccine reaction, would always be to hedge my bets by accepting any top-ups that are offered, plus taking as many reasonable precautions as I can. I think that's basically the calculation that most people will have to make. It must be genuinely difficult if you've been bed-bound for weeks or months after a jab, though, specially if on most criteria you appear to be at fairly low risk of infection in the first place, or of having serious complications if you did pick it up.

 

[5vforest]

I'm not convinced anyone really knows, especially given the new variants that are going to keep popping up.

This is it. I don't think anyone really knows. There are too many changing factors like new variants, vaccine updates, etc.

The other problem is that it's become very hard to even discuss the science without being accused of being "anti-vax". Apparently there is a risk to researchers who publish anything even remotely critical of the official party line.

Also, you may wish to consider that boosters will likely continue, maybe even indefinitely at a regular interval.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

But does that equal less symptoms in case of breakthrough infections? Less likelihood of LongCovid?

Nobody knows for sure but if you go on the basis of what is much most likely a booster is very likely to stop you getting a nasty illness. I would take the data on antibodies and stuff with a pinch of salt. We know the vaccines provide immunity in the sense of reducing the likelihood of being ill. A top up almost certainly boosts that.

My friends had had their first doses several months back and a child came home from school full of Covid. Maybe no amount of vaccine would have protected them but if you come into contact with a small dose in the street or a shop immunity may make all the difference.

 

[FMMM1]

Could you dumb that down for me? I understand a third jab gives people my age group higher neutralization titers. But does that equal less symptoms in case of breakthrough infections? Less likelihood of LongCovid?

@Jonathan Edwards indeed does not sound good. Do you think further boosters will be necessary?

Sorry hadn't read down to Jonathan's reply - ignore.

"Boosters give over 90% protection against symptomatic COVID-19 in adults over 50---"*. So that's why they're running the booster program. However, this is population based i.e. you, as per Jonathan's friends, could be the unlucky (>10% who have symptomatic illness).

My impression is that Long covid is poorly understood; therefore, it cannot be tested for/predicted.

I'm guessing boosters are a fact of life but I wonder if they're going to have to develop a new vaccine (few months) and deliver it (6 months?) i.e. to address the new variant. Think I recall Fergus Walsh said that we'd know more in a few weeks i.e. if the new variant will infect people who are vaccinated.

You might be interested in Independent Sage - Friday (YouTube 1.30 pm)



*[https://www.gov.uk/government/news/boosters-give-over-90-protection-against-symptomatic-covid-19-in-adults-over-50#:~:text=Universal Credit account-,Boosters give over 90% protection against symptomatic COVID,19 in adults over 50]

 

[Binkie4]

Thank you to thread participants for this discussion here.

It is an awful mess for those of us with adverse reactions who need to decide whether to get more vaccinations. It has become more pressured in a way now that booster2 can be given after 3 months.

For me that is January 2nd although I heard the tail end of a news item which seemed to be saying " do not book yourself in but wait to be approached ". I am not yet fully over booster 1 so at the moment, I would refuse booster 2, and I haven't sorted out how I want to go forward. I flip flop. I want the protection of the vaccine without severe adverse effects.

Since I have had 2 types of vaccine (3 doses in total) and have reacted badly to both, my experience would support the theory that if you are sensitive to vs, you will have an adverse reaction but this is just a personal story.

There is also the issue of how you react: are your reactions similar to each other or do they differ dependant on the vaccine type?

My AZ reactions were totally different from the Pf.

AZ produced " almost anaphylaxis" (GP diagnosis), ie angioedema of the throat, but also nausea, dizziness, extreme fatigue, severe tinnitus, weakness and I was bedbound for many weeks. Both AZ vs were in a community setting and I managed the reactions myself- I had rescue antihistamines, and epipens, not needed.

I am grateful not to have had the neurological reactions suffered by many which seem to have persisted.

I was referred to hospital for a booster on advice of my immunologist. Very glad to be there because the Pf produced such severe vertigo, dizziness, nausea and then vomiting ( high B P and hr)that I was terrified. I was moved to A and E where doctor wanted to admit me to hospital but as soon as I was feeling a bit better I preferred to go home. Vomiting continued for several days and nausea is still around along with an unusual drowsiness but shorter length of symptoms overall than for AZ.


Neither dose gave me a sore arm, nor a headache nor flulike symptoms.

So at the moment I will wait, collect what information I can especially about fractional doses, ask for advice from an immunologist. I am interested too in novavax which should be approved very soon and which is reported to have fewer side effects.

edit: paragraphing

 

[Snow Leopard]

The people seeing the neurologists have developed neuropathy since having the covid vaccine(s). As to what my comment meant, some doctors believe that the vaccine has revved up our immune systems causing the adverse reactions that are being seen.

But "revved up" is mostly meaningless. Autoimmune illnesses are triggered by specific things going wrong, not a generalized increased activity.

 

[Samuel]

what is the relation of m.e. severity level to reactions reported or observed?

[and to decisions that have been made or dr. recommendaions.]

how soon will any of these studies on fractionated dosing etc. be done? the rumored klimas study? etc.?

i likely have a note someplace on "klimas supplements" for prevenging reactions. and steroids have been mentioned. what is the general oinion esp. of those who hvave had unfortunate reactions? or other precautions do people think were helpful for them or were not? don't want to make those with bad reactions sicker by making them asnwering too many questions though.